Match Day Thread Tottenham Hotspur v Fulham

[Dier Hard]

Yes but who were the players he was offered? Levy's plenty good enough at managing his public image, as we saw with that ****e All of Nothing series. I wouldn't take what he hints at, or leaks, as a fair reflection of things.

We know what Pochettino wanted from what he consistently said in press conferences. He wanted new players in early for preseason. The players who hit the ground running for us under Pochettino were Dele, Wanyama and Toby and they all had a full preseason with us. You'd think they'd all been at the club for years the way played for us from the start. Son and Sissoko, for example, both looked completely different players for us once they had a proper preseason.

I'm saying this with hindsight, of course. I wasn't too concerned when we didn't sign any players that summer and I generally supported Levy getting in the right players late and at a better fee. But looking back, there was huge pressure to get the summer '19 window right. Tanguy was a good start and it's not Levy's fault that he had all those issues but after that we spent the rest of the time negotiating for 2 players we identified before the start of the window, trying to turn Dybala's £40mill image rights into £10mill and failing to sort out Toby and Eriksen's futures. It was a shambles for something we had most of a year to plan.



*early relative to the season start.

HBIC’s mentioned a couple but we were extensively linked with a lot of players that have ended up at Leicester and you have to think why we were saying “no” to some. Poch may not have been solely to blame on all rejected players but I get the feeling (based on things Gold and Kilpatrick have said) he was extremely stubborn in his ways and would only say yes to the players he wanted. If an alternative was presented he seemingly said no and that ultimately left Spurs over the following seasons with an ageing and declining squad that we’re still paying the price for.

It looks like we never tried sealing the deal for Bruno Fernandes too because Lo Celso was the one we opted to sign alongside Ndombele and we couldn’t sign both Lo Celso and Fernandes. In hindsight, absolutely disastrous decision.

Dybala rejected Spurs by the way, the image stuff was more of a false story, it was an obstacle in a potential deal but ultimately the player rejected us and that’s why he never joined.

 

[The Huddlefro]

I get that people have deeply analysed the issues but the most important issue is that

WE ARE SO FECKING TEDIOUS TO WATCH FOR AT LEAST ONE HALF EVERY GAME

It’s frustrating that Jose can’t see what everyone sees who has watched Spurs this season: 1-0 is not a safe scoreline for us. When we put our feet on the gas as we did in the last 15 yesterday and have done at the end of countless games where we’ve dropped points this season, we’re capable of playing exciting football and opening teams up. I just don’t get why we’re only doing that in the late game when we’ve already ****ed up rather than coming out guns blazing after half time following what is usually a decent if unspectacular first half from us.

Bury the game then by all means slow the tempo and shut it down, but 1-0 isn’t enough.

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

A post in another thread reminded me to say this: Ally McCoist was decent, again.
Amazon are getting some things right with their coverage. Our results on it are ****, though.

 

[PowerSpurs]

He ticked the second box (young and likely to develop), but very much missed the first (improving the team here and now). Haven't seen that box ticked since Wanyama's signing 4.5 years ago. That is a huge problem, no matter which you you slice it. Other teams (Liverpool and Leicester immediately spring to mind. With a bit more time, Everton, Man Utd and Soton can join that list too) have managed to make immediate improvements to their first teams during that time. Why haven't we, despite eventually spending upwards of £250m?

Maybe our recruitment department is broken beyond repair? If you plotted a graph and made the x-axis players signed and the y-axis success of signing, you'd see a sharp downward plummet from pretty much the moment Paul Mitchell became Steve Hitchen. The latter was the person who came across the worst in that whole documentary. Seems hyper-cautious, pessimistic and defeatist - not attitudes a club with our aspirations wants or needs.

I tend to agree about Hojbjerg. Definite upgrade on Winks but so far haven't seen much more than that. Has some games where he's everywhere but others (such as yesterday) where much of the game just seems to pass him by. In his defense I don't think playing alongside Winks is helping him as they both occupy similar areas and perform similar tasks, so we end up with two half-baked (and confused) cakes.

Liverpool signed about 10 centre backs over 6 years until they bought van Dyck. Leicester finish below us almost every year and Everton are the best example in England of how not to spend money. Signing the best players is more by luck than judgement as far as I can see. Robertson and Salah being good examples

 

[PowerSpurs]

It’s frustrating that Jose can’t see what everyone sees who has watched Spurs this season: 1-0 is not a safe scoreline for us. When we put our feet on the gas as we did in the last 15 yesterday and have done at the end of countless games where we’ve dropped points this season, we’re capable of playing exciting football and opening teams up. I just don’t get why we’re only doing that in the late game when we’ve already ****ed up rather than coming out guns blazing after half time following what is usually a decent if unspectacular first half from us.

Bury the game then by all means slow the tempo and shut it down, but 1-0 isn’t enough.

We did that against West Ham and that didn’t work either. When goals are scored is very random. I we had gone one nil down in many games and fought back for a draw that is no better and no worse. Since goals are quite rare, it does make sense to change tactics as time runs out. The theory that the way we play makes us vulnerable to late goals is not proven.

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

Liverpool signed about 10 centre backs over 6 years until they bought van Dyck. Leicester finish below us almost every year and Everton are the best example in England of how not to spend money. Signing the best players is more by luck than judgement as far as I can see. Robertson and Sarah being good examples

Yeah, that Sarah's a right bitch.

Salah was obviously a good player when we played Basel in 2013.
Robertson was clearly a very good player in **** teams, including his national side.

A lot of signings fail because they're not right for the system or manager, rather than the quality of the player.
So many teams seem to just go out and buy someone who is doing well. They don't consider anything else.

 

[Citizen Kane.]

We did that against West Ham and that didn’t work either. When goals are scored is very random. I we had gone one nil down in many games and fought back for a draw that is no better and no worse. Since goals are quite rare, it does make sense to change tactics as time runs out. The theory that the way we play makes us vulnerable to late goals is not proven.

Goals conceded this season: 16

Goals conceded in the 2nd half of games: 12

Goals conceded after the 70th min: 9

Goals scored: 30

Goals scored in the 1st half of games: 19

Goals scored after the 70th min: 6

I'd say that's more of a pattern than random.

 

[The RDBD]

... I'd say that's more of a pattern than random.

As we say in software development : when something occurs three times, it's a pattern.

On that basis, you appear to have axioms rather than patterns.

 

[The Huddlefro]

We did that against West Ham and that didn’t work either. When goals are scored is very random. I we had gone one nil down in many games and fought back for a draw that is no better and no worse. Since goals are quite rare, it does make sense to change tactics as time runs out. The theory that the way we play makes us vulnerable to late goals is not proven.

It would have worked even despite the defensive errors that have plagued us (including last night) if Lanzini hadn’t banged in a goal of the season contender. I wasn’t so much upset about the 3rd in the cold light of day as I was by the two preceding it. Sometimes the opposition score a worldie and that can’t be prevented.

Though I think like CK says there is a pattern, I don’t think late goals specifically are the issue. The issue is that we’re reacting to adversity rather than being on the front foot and putting a game to bed. Like West Ham it won’t work 100% of the time but it we’d pushed harder, earlier in games, I’d wager we’d have more points now as we’d have put games to bed and be less vulnerable to late defensive lapses/magic moments which leave us less time to react.

When we react we look dangerous, but we shouldn’t be in a position to react. We should be upping the tempo pre-emptively to kill games off.

 

[PowerSpurs]

Goals conceded this season: 16

Goals conceded in the 2nd half of games: 12

Goals conceded after the 70th min: 9

Goals scored: 30

Goals scored in the 1st half of games: 19

Goals scored after the 70th min: 6

I'd say that's more of a pattern than random.

Seeing patterns in random numbers is a common human failing and responsible for many poor decisions in all works of life. There are lots of statistical tests that demonstrate that

 

["Thanks for that Brian"]

We did that against West Ham and that didn’t work either. When goals are scored is very random. I we had gone one nil down in many games and fought back for a draw that is no better and no worse. Since goals are quite rare, it does make sense to change tactics as time runs out. The theory that the way we play makes us vulnerable to late goals is not proven.

Not only do we know when we're going to concede. We know how as well...

All the opposition have to do is put in a decent cross late in the game and we're all at sea and a goal ensues...and it happens again...and again...and again.

 

[BrunelGunner]

Question for you guys - if he wins you the League Cup, would that buy him some goodwill from the fans or do you want him out regardless if he carries on with the current approach ? I've had mixed responses to this from Spurs supporters that I know.

 

[PowerSpurs]

It would have worked even despite the defensive errors that have plagued us (including last night) if Lanzini hadn’t banged in a goal of the season contender. I wasn’t so much upset about the 3rd in the cold light of day as I was by the two preceding it. Sometimes the opposition score a worldie and that can’t be prevented.

Though I think like CK says there is a pattern, I don’t think late goals specifically are the issue. The issue is that we’re reacting to adversity rather than being on the front foot and putting a game to bed. Like West Ham it won’t work 100% of the time but it we’d pushed harder, earlier in games, I’d wager we’d have more points now as we’d have put games to bed and be less vulnerable to late defensive lapses/magic moments which leave us less time to react.

I would take the same wager but in matches where we didn't score and the opposition scored two because we gave them more space, people would still complain.

 

[Spurf]

Question for you guys - if he wins you the League Cup, would that buy him some goodwill from the fans or do you want him out regardless if he carries on with the current approach ? I've had mixed responses to this from Spurs supporters that I know.

If that is the target then the sooner he goes the better.

 

[PowerSpurs]

Not only do we know when we're going to concede. We know how as well...

All the opposition have to do is put in a decent cross late in the game and we're all at sea and a goal ensues...and it happens again...and again...and again.

Bet on that for the rest of the season then. You will likely lose.

 

[BrunelGunner]

If that is the target then the sooner he goes the better.

If you finish outside the top 4 but win the League Cup, I would agree. But if he gets you 4th/3rd with a domestic trophy, then even if you persist with his notoriously ugly brand of football, there's not a chance he goes IMO.

 

[PowerSpurs]

Question for you guys - if he wins you the League Cup, would that buy him some goodwill from the fans or do you want him out regardless if he carries on with the current approach ? I've had mixed responses to this from Spurs supporters that I know.

As I've said before, winning trophies is an outcome of a random process biased by what the manager does. So one trophy means nothing. I will judge him by whether he takes actions consistent with what he said when he was hired or consistent good results, not by a single trophy.

 

[PowerSpurs]

Not only do we know when we're going to concede. We know how as well...

All the opposition have to do is put in a decent cross late in the game and we're all at sea and a goal ensues...and it happens again...and again...and again.

But even if its true, the task is to stop it happening. Not score one extra goal every match to make up for it, because that isn't going to happen.

 

[The RDBD]

If you finish outside the top 4 but win the League Cup, I would agree. But if he gets you 4th/3rd with a domestic trophy, then even if you persist with his notoriously ugly brand of football, there's not a chance he goes IMO.

^with ^without, and Levy probably still does not pull the trigger.

All Spurs managers who have departed since Ramos have
effectively done so with the loss of a CL slot either happening
or definitely threatening to happen.

No "season before" goodwill from Levy.

 

[The Huddlefro]

I would take the same wager but in matches where we didn't score and the opposition scored two because we gave them more space, people would still complain.

Different kettle of fish though, shutting down space is the right thing to do against some teams. But there have been plenty of situations where we’ve done it too early to too great an extent, not killed the game, and lost to a defensive lapse in the second half. A uniform approach is precisely what is hurting us right now. Given our defensive weakness and lack of balance in midfield, shutting down at 1-0 up is rarely going to be the right thing to do unless we’re up against a team we should be looking to run the counter attacking game against, like City, who would dominate us in possession even if we wanted the ball more.