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[BrunelGunner]

Whichever part you think is appropriate.
Do you think that Ozil should be finished over it or is that just how you believe Arsenal will react?

I thought he was done anyway, to be honest. As I said to you before, he's running out his contract and then joining Basaksehir.
He doesn't care about Arsenal.

We've had this conversation before. I think Ozil was finished prior to this publicity stunt, but whatever hopes Arsenal fans harboured of Arteta reinstating him back into the first team are definitely over now, if it wasn't obvious before. Not because he agreed to pay the salary of a club mascot, but because of what this act, and its timing, represents. Arsenal were already being castigated for it by journalists and mainstream media outlets (not saying it wasn't wholly undeserved). So the last thing you want is a high-profile name, with 25 million Twitter followers and 22 million Instagram followers, pouring more gasoline to the fire. Whatever you think about the decision to temporarily get rid of Gunnersaurus, there's not a chance in hell Arsenal will appreciate him inflaming a situation that's garnered more attention than they would have wanted.

As for your point on Erdogan, I want to make a couple of counter points. First of all, not everyone views him in the same way. There are plenty of people, not just within Turkey, but within Asia, that do adore him. I realise that this isn't a point you want me to make, but it's important because (leading onto my second point), Ozil's ties with Erdogan go back years and it hasn't stopped us from playing him before. Rightly or wrongly, this was never going to be a contentious enough issue in itself to stop him from playing.

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

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They tried...

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

We've had this conversation before. I think Ozil was finished prior to this publicity stunt, but whatever hopes Arsenal fans harboured of Arteta reinstating him back into the first team are definitely over now, if it wasn't obvious before. Not because he agreed to pay the salary of a club mascot, but because of what this act, and its timing, represents. Arsenal were already being castigated for it by journalists and mainstream media outlets (not saying it wasn't wholly undeserved). So the last thing you want is a high-profile name, with 25 million Twitter followers and 22 million Instagram followers, pouring more gasoline to the fire. Whatever you think about the decision to temporarily get rid of Gunnersaurus, there's not a chance in hell Arsenal will appreciate him inflaming a situation that's garnered more attention than they would have wanted.

As for your point on Erdogan, I want to make a couple of counter points. First of all, not everyone views him in the same way. There are plenty of people, not just within Turkey, but within Asia, that do adore him. I realise that this isn't a point you want me to make, but it's important because (leading onto my second point), Ozil's ties with Erdogan go back years and it hasn't stopped us from playing him before. Rightly or wrongly, this was never going to be a contentious enough issue in itself to stop him from playing.

I don't think that Arsenal's position on Ozil will be influenced by his actions today.
They probably won't appreciate it, but he hasn't played a single minute since early March anyway.

As for Erdogan being adored by some people, so is Putin. Some people think Kim Jong-un is basically a deity.
They're all murderous dictators though, so anyone associating with them should be treated accordingly.
Arsenal aren't going to treat him any differently, but decent people should.

 

[Hoddle is a god]

Arsenal aren't going to treat him any differently, but decent people should.

Awkward.

 

[BrunelGunner]

I don't think that Arsenal's position on Ozil will be influenced by his actions today.
They probably won't appreciate it, but he hasn't played a single minute since early March anyway.

As for Erdogan being adored by some people, so is Putin. Some people think Kim Jong-un is basically a deity.
They're all murderous dictators though, so anyone associating with them should be treated accordingly.
Arsenal aren't going to treat him any differently, but decent people should.

At the risk of bringing up a very sensitive topic. There are players who have served in the IDF and have been supporters of Netanyahu and the State of Israel. Should these players be treated differently too?

I’m no fan of Erdogan, but you or me thinking he’s a dictator doesn’t alter other people’s realities or perspectives. It’s true when people say one person’s terrorist is another person’s freedom fighter. Where do we draw the line?

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

At the risk of bringing up a very sensitive topic. There are players who have served in the IDF and have been supporters of Netanyahu and the State of Israel. Should these players be treated differently too?

I’m no fan of Erdogan, but you or me thinking he’s a dictator doesn’t alter other people’s realities or perspectives. It’s true when people say one person’s terrorist is another person’s freedom fighter. Where do we draw the line?

At actual terrorists. He's engaged in ethnic cleansing and he's a dictator. It's not a tough line to draw.
He's not fighting against an oppressive regime, he is one.

Israelis are required to serve in the IDF, much like South Koreans have to serve in their military.
The Premier League doesn't sign many Israeli footballers, though.
Yossi Benayoun's the only one that I can verify served time in the IDF, continuing his career in football while he did so.

 

[BrunelGunner]

At actual terrorists. He's engaged in ethnic cleansing and he's a dictator. It's not a tough line to draw.
He's not fighting against an oppressive regime, he is one.

Is Netanyahu not an actual terrorist too? If we’re going to go down this road, then we should be doing the same for all of the dictators and human rights abusers. You can’t just pick and choose the one that suits.

You’re preaching to the choir on Erdogan. It still doesn’t change what I’ve said. Go and mention his ethnic cleansing or suppressive activities, his apologists will deny it and give their own narrative.

Israelis are required to serve in the IDF, much like South Koreans have to serve in their military.
The Premier League doesn't sign many Israeli footballers, though.
Yossi Benayoun's the only one that I can verify served time in the IDF, continuing his career in football while he did so.

Whether it’s 1 or 1000, it still shouldn’t change the principle, surely? Benayoun never got anywhere near as much stick for being an Israeli nationalist than Ozil did for being mates with Erdogan. Whatever you think about the IDF and it being mandatory, the right thing to do would be to refuse service and avoid being an active part of killing innocent people and treating them inhumanely.
Other Israelis who don’t support the government or the IDF have done this before. It would be the right moral thing to do.

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

Is Netanyahu not an actual terrorist too? If we’re going to go down this road, then we should be doing the same for all of the dictators and human rights abusers. You can’t just pick and choose the one that suits.

Which player has had Netanyahu as his best man? I'll gladly slag him off, too.

Whether it’s 1 or 1000, it still shouldn’t change the principle, surely? Benayoun never got anywhere near as much stick for being an Israeli nationalist than Ozil did for being mates with Erdogan. Whatever you think about the IDF and it being mandatory, the right thing to do would be to refuse service and avoid being an active part of killing innocent people and treating them inhumanely.
Other Israelis who don’t support the government or the IDF have done this before. It would be the right moral thing to do.

Benayoun didn't say or do anything publicly supporting the Israeli government during his time in England, as far as I recall.
I can't find any results for him and Netanyahu at all, other than a story about him being abused by Chelsea fans.

Expecting an 18-year-old Israeli to denounce the IDF in 1998 is also rather unlikely.
Quite different to a 30-year-old German who has lived in Spain and England for a decade knowing about Erdogan.
He hasn't been hit with a ton of propaganda every day during his upbringing.
He's best mates with a bloke who locks people up for slagging him off:
https://stockholmcf.org/more-than-3...tion-for-insulting-president-erdogan-in-2019/

 

[BrunelGunner]

Benayoun didn't say or do anything publicly supporting the Israeli government during his time in England, as far as I recall.

He didn't need to. The fact he represented them at international level, captained them & has played for several teams in the country is enough of an endorsement. The entire State is built on lies and oppression. I don't look favourably on anyone who represents any Israeli club of their own volition, and that extends to ex/future Arsenal players too.

Expecting an 18-year-old Israeli to denounce the IDF in 1998 is also rather unlikely.

Perhaps it is harsh, as people have been imprisoned for refusing to do so, whether they be conscientious objectors or otherwise.
Which says a lot.

Quite different to a 30-year-old German who has lived in Spain and England for a decade knowing about Erdogan.
He hasn't been hit with a ton of propaganda every day during his upbringing.
He's best mates with a bloke who locks people up for slagging him off:
https://stockholmcf.org/more-than-3...tion-for-insulting-president-erdogan-in-2019/

Again - when you say 'knowing' about Erdogan, Ozil will deny any claims of repression or dictatorship because he either doesn't want to know about it or genuinely doesn't believe he's a monster. Ozil, as his mate, will know all too well about character assassination in the media and he probably thinks it's the same with Erdogan. If people genuinely do not believe he's a bad person, or that there's a western agenda against him, how are you supposed to convince them otherwise?

If we start punishing players for their ties or links with morally repugnant people, then it has to be consistent across the board. Which will never happen.

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

He didn't need to. The fact he represented them at international level, captained them & has played for several teams in the country is enough of an endorsement. The entire State is built on lies and oppression. I don't look favourably on anyone who represents any Israeli club of their own volition, and that extends to ex/future Arsenal players too.

That's rather a matter of opinion though and I doubt it extends to other countries.
Russian clubs? Turkish ones? Basaksehir? Chelsea?
Representing a country is not the same as being best mates with a dictator.

Criticising an Israeli for playing in Israel would be seen as rather harsh by most people, I'd have thought.

Perhaps it is harsh, as people have been imprisoned for refusing to do so, whether they be conscientious objectors or otherwise.
Which says a lot.

I don't agree with national service, but plenty of countries have it.
I mentioned South Korea earlier, but Switzerland has it, too.
I don't think that you can generalise countries by that alone.

Again - when you say 'knowing' about Erdogan, Ozil will deny any claims of repression or dictatorship because he either doesn't want to know about it or genuinely doesn't believe he's a monster. Ozil, as his mate, will know all too well about character assassination in the media and he probably thinks it's the same with Erdogan. If people genuinely do not believe he's a bad person, or that there's a western agenda against him, how are you supposed to convince them otherwise?

If we start punishing players for their ties or links with morally repugnant people, then it has to be consistent across the board. Which will never happen.

He pushed back against criticism of his friendship with Erdogan, so he knows that the criticism itself exists.
It's not hard to find out that he locks up people for criticising him. It's a matter of public record.
Who's friends with someone like that? People that don't mind dictatorships.

 

[BrunelGunner]

Representing a country is not the same as being best mates with a dictator.

It's not, but playing for local clubs and being content living in an illegal state that kills innocent people for no reason still reflects poorly on any individual.

Criticising an Israeli for playing in Israel would be seen as rather harsh by most people, I'd have thought.

My view is that any Israeli who does not speak out against their government and refuses to acknowledge the atrocities of how it was 'founded' deserves criticism. And those who are silent have chosen to side with the oppressors.

I don't agree with national service, but plenty of countries have it.
I mentioned South Korea earlier, but Switzerland has it, too.
I don't think that you can generalise countries by that alone.

There is no comparison whatsoever between Switzerland and Israel. There's also an option for civilian service/protection in Switzerland, and they are flexible when it comes to exemptions too. You don't get imprisoned for refusing to serve.

He pushed back against criticism of his friendship with Erdogan, so he knows that the criticism itself exists.
It's not hard to find out that he locks up people for criticising him. It's a matter of public record.
Who's friends with someone like that? People that don't mind dictatorships.

No, I understand he knows the criticism exists. I'm saying he won't agree or won't acknowledge with the reasons behind it.
There are a lot of people who don't like Erdogan and those who have tried to plot against him. What if he justifies the imprisonments by saying it's not for criticism, it's for conspiracy?

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

It's not, but playing for local clubs and being content living in an illegal state that kills innocent people for no reason still reflects poorly on any individual.

It's the country of his birth and I doubt he shares that opinion.

My view is that any Israeli who does not speak out against their government and refuses to acknowledge the atrocities of how it was 'founded' deserves criticism. And those who are silent have chosen to side with the oppressors.

Again, this is opinion.

There is no comparison whatsoever between Switzerland and Israel. There's also an option for civilian service/protection in Switzerland, and they are flexible when it comes to exemptions too. You don't get imprisoned for refusing to serve.

It's a criminal offence to refuse to serve in Switzerland. There are ways around it in both countries.

No, I understand he knows the criticism exists. I'm saying he won't agree or won't acknowledge with the reasons behind it.
There are a lot of people who don't like Erdogan and those who have tried to plot against him. What if he justifies the imprisonments by saying it's not for criticism, it's for conspiracy?

It's not for conspiracy, nor does it claim to be. The offence is literally insulting the President.
There's no opinion or conflict on this matter. People go to jail for slagging off his best man.

 

[BrunelGunner]

It's the country of his birth and I doubt he shares that opinion.

So? That doesn't mean it's wrong. And there's plenty of evidence to show it is an illegal state. It's not really that disputable.

Again, this is opinion.

See above.

It's a criminal offence to refuse to serve in Switzerland. There are ways around it in both countries.

No, it's not the same. In Switzerland, there is more flexibility around not serving in the military and you can serve in other ways. The rules are much more stringent in Israel and there are more cases of people going to prison over there. To be fair, there's been less over the years....presumably because people aren't willing to go to prison.

It's not for conspiracy, nor does it claim to be. The offence is literally insulting the President.
There's no opinion or conflict on this matter. People go to jail for slagging off his best man.

This isn't true though. They caveat this by saying they've imprisoned journalists/political opponents for tweets criticising the president and spreading terrorist propaganda. The latter of which will be the main focus for the incarceration.
https://www.euronews.com/2019/09/06...rs-for-crimes-including-insulting-turkey-s-pr

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

So? That doesn't mean it's wrong. And there's plenty of evidence to show it is an illegal state. It's not really that disputable.

Of course it is. It's not even a mainstream opinion.

No, it's not the same. In Switzerland, there is more flexibility around not serving in the military and you can serve in other ways. The rules are much more stringent in Israel and there are more cases of people going to prison over there. To be fair, there's been less over the years....presumably because people aren't willing to go to prison.

You can serve in other ways in Israel. Very few Swiss opt out, too.

This isn't true though. They caveat this by saying they've imprisoned journalists/political opponents for tweets criticising the president and spreading terrorist propaganda. The latter of which will be the main focus for the incarceration.
https://www.euronews.com/2019/09/06...rs-for-crimes-including-insulting-turkey-s-pr

It's indisputably true.
https://ahvalnews.com/insulting-pre...cord-breaking-jail-sentence-insulting-erdogan

Some journalists and politicians have been charged with additional offences, but he's locking people up for slagging him off.
12 years for some social media posts? He's an open, obvious tyrant.

 

[Blue and White]

Been busy this evening and now caught up with this debate.

Can I please ask for it to be stopped because it is getting far too political .

I don't want to ask the mods to intervene.

Thank you

 

[BrunelGunner]

Of course it is. It's not even a mainstream opinion.

Says who? There's plenty of evidence to justify my claim.

It's indisputably true.
https://ahvalnews.com/insulting-pre...cord-breaking-jail-sentence-insulting-erdogan

Some journalists and politicians have been charged with additional offences, but he's locking people up for slagging him off.
12 years for some social media posts? He's an open, obvious tyrant.

We're splitting hairs over this. I am not disputing he does these things for the reasons you've stated. My point is more that he conveys these incarcerations as being motivated by other things, like conspiracy and terrorism, and his advocates will do the same thing. Ozil included.

 

[BrunelGunner]

Been busy this evening and now caught up with this debate.

Can I please ask for it to be stopped because it is getting far too political .

I don't want to ask the mods to intervene.

Thank you

Sorry, but I don't agree with this. You shouldn't ever stop debates because it gets political. We're talking about matters that impact the lives of people and talking about things that matter, like human rights, abuse, democracy, rule of law and matters which pertain to morals/ethics.

Whether we like it or not, politics and sports is intertwined.

 

[Diego]

Sorry, but I don't agree with this. You shouldn't ever stop debates because it gets political. We're talking about matters that impact the lives of people and talking about things that matter, like human rights, abuse, democracy, rule of law and matters which pertain to morals/ethics.

Whether we like it or not, politics and sports is intertwined.

I will jump in here and say you are not debating politics.
You are arguing about who someone should have as a best man. How long has Ozil known Erdogan, have they been mates for a long time or was it a "famous person" best man? I really don't know the answer so a little help is required.
All i know is a long term mate is a mate and with normal folk your best/closest mate is your best man regardless of how he treats others or what they think of him, it's all about shared lives.

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

Been busy this evening and now caught up with this debate.

Can I please ask for it to be stopped because it is getting far too political .

I don't want to ask the mods to intervene.

Thank you

Sounds fair.

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

Sorry, but I don't agree with this. You shouldn't ever stop debates because it gets political. We're talking about matters that impact the lives of people and talking about things that matter, like human rights, abuse, democracy, rule of law and matters which pertain to morals/ethics.

Whether we like it or not, politics and sports is intertwined.

We do have a thread for politics, though. It's only fair that political discussion should move there:
https://www.not606.com/threads/the-politics-thread.323088/