Off Topic The Politics Thread

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Should the UK remain a part of the EU or leave?

  • Stay in

    Votes: 56 47.9%

  • Get out

    Votes: 61 52.1%
  • Total voters
    117
  • Poll closed .
Staines R's said:
I agree it’s perfectly reasonable to agree with anti racism without supporting the BLM movement (as that’s firmly where I stand)

Using your analogy, I could support the unification of Ireland while bitterly opposing the actions of the IRA.....and would find supporters of the IRA weird in their thinking, if they supported their aims but condemn their actions......and wore an IRA badge or salutes at a parade. You can’t have it both ways.

Hope that makes sense
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It does. None of the analogies are perfect (none ever are) but I think of it more like the first one - as a political party. I support many of the BLM broad anti-racism objectives, but that doesn't stop me condemning some of their statements or some of the individuals.
 
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Quite Possibly Raving said:
It does. None of the analogies are perfect (none ever are) but I think of it more like the first one - as a political party. I support many of the BLM broad anti-racism objectives, but that doesn't stop me condemning some of their statements or some of the individuals.
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Surely you also condemn some of their policies - abolishing capitalism (which, for all its flaws, history shows is the best system available) and defunding the police?
 
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Quite Possibly Raving said:
It does. None of the analogies are perfect (none ever are) but I think of it more like the first one - as a political party. I support many of the BLM broad anti-racism objectives, but that doesn't stop me condemning some of their statements or some of the individuals.
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Agree mate.....but when the aims of a movement like BLM are so extreme ie Defunding the police, dismantling capitalism etc...it’s pretty hard to ignore don’t you think ?
It’s like the Labour Party making one of their main policies to abolish the monarchy.....there would be many Labour supporters who would discontinue their support of the party I assume (not me though ;) )
 
I'm not sure where all of this leaves the "Kick it Out" campaign for example

At the very least football - in its widest incarnation right down to grass roots / school level - can be a real force for change, not just as regards racism but the promotion of equality for all including female and disabled participants and fans

Simply - and like many other high profile businesses - jumping on a visible bandwagon like BLM risks marginalizing efforts in other areas. Access to many stadia for disabled fans, for example, is still shocking

The KIO campaign has been - at best - patchy and not (I don't believe) especially effective. I suspect that the BLM message will be dropped / fade into the background in the coming months

Football needs to do what it can within its own sphere. It cannot be responsible for all ills in society, but at least focus on the possible

So much good work is being done by individual clubs (QPR and Grenfell for example) yet a lot more could, I believe, be achieved through more joined up thinking at an FA level
 
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Goldhawk-Road said:
Surely you also condemn some of their policies - abolishing capitalism (which, for all its flaws, history shows is the best system available) and defunding the police?
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One thing this has taught me is that Anarchism, which I was a firm supporter of, cannot work due to the fact human beings as a whole are vile, selfish and only out for themselves.
I‘m now finding myself lost politically......:(
 
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StortfordQPR said:
I'm not sure where all of this leaves the "Kick it Out" campaign for example

At the very least football - in its widest incarnation right down to grass roots / school level - can be a real force for change, not just as regards racism but the promotion of equality for all including female and disabled participants and fans

Simply - and like many other high profile businesses - jumping on a visible bandwagon like BLM risks marginalizing efforts in other areas. Access to many stadia for disabled fans, for example, is still shocking

The KIO campaign has been - at best - patchy and not (I don't believe) especially effective. I suspect that the BLM message will be dropped / fade into the background in the coming months

Football needs to do what it can within its own sphere. It cannot be responsible for all ills in society, but at least focus on the possible

So much good work is being done by individual clubs (QPR and Grenfell for example) yet a lot more could, I believe, be achieved through more joined up thinking at an FA level
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Funny I was thinking of the KIO campaign the other day.......wonder what their take on it all is ?
 
Staines R's said:
Funny I was thinking of the KIO campaign the other day.......wonder what their take on it all is ?
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Quiet possibly a feeling of frustration - a different campaign comes along and could achieve more than they have done - tempered by enthusiasm that it could - in a broader sense - turbo charge what they have been seeking to do

If that makes sense lol
 
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Staines R's said:
One thing this has taught me is that Anarchism, which I was a firm supporter of, cannot work due to the fact human beings as a whole are vile, selfish and only out for themselves.
I‘m now finding myself lost politically......:(
Click to expand...

Considered change within a tested system works. If it's too extreme i.e. Germany after WW1 and The Great Depression, or Russia after the 1917 Revolution, it ends in misery.
 
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Staines R's said:
Agree mate.....but when the aims of a movement like BLM are so extreme ie Defunding the police, dismantling capitalism etc...it’s pretty hard to ignore don’t you think ?
It’s like the Labour Party making one of their main policies to abolish the monarchy.....there would be many Labour supporters who would discontinue their support of the party I assume (not me though ;) )
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If I thought they were the main aims of the campaign then I'd agree. But when I go onto the official site on their goals and focus page (here: https://blacklivesmatter.com/blms-whatmatters2020-goals-and-focus/) they have three main aims:

1. Vigorously engage our communities in the electoral process
2. Educate our constituents about candidates and the issues that impact us most
3. Promote voter registration among Generation Z, the Black community, and our allies

I can't see anything on there about defunding the police or dismantling capitalism. I'm not going to base my support or otherwise based on what one individual in one area says, or even what one local organisation might say. In the same way you don't base your support for a political party based on one fringe nutjob or one local party association.

Hope that makes sense. If the main campaign goals on the official site starts becoming about ending capitalism then of course I'd think about other anti-racism campaigns to support.

I do think others - not yourself - are only too happy to focus on the isolated actions / statement of individuals in order to disengage from the issues being discussed, which naturally speaks volumes.
 
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Staines R's said:
I’ll be supporting ‘Sir Keir’ before much longer.......:(
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He's doing ok. He made the right decision on RLB, and the Left of Labour are quiet while his ratings rise. But he hasn't really been tested yet on a positive basis - he's a cautious lawyer, and when asked what his policy is on a difficult matter, he has a habit of saying he'd "look" at it, set up a task force and take soundings. If he fails that test, there'll be problems within the party
 
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Quite Possibly Raving said:
If I thought they were the main aims of the campaign then I'd agree. But when I go onto the official site on their goals and focus page (here: https://blacklivesmatter.com/blms-whatmatters2020-goals-and-focus/) they have three main aims:

1. Vigorously engage our communities in the electoral process
2. Educate our constituents about candidates and the issues that impact us most
3. Promote voter registration among Generation Z, the Black community, and our allies

I can't see anything on there about defunding the police or dismantling capitalism. I'm not going to base my support or otherwise based on what one individual in one area says, or even what one local organisation might say. In the same way you don't base your support for a political party based on one fringe nutjob or one local party association.

Hope that makes sense. If the main campaign goals on the official site starts becoming about ending capitalism then of course I'd think about other anti-racism campaigns to support.

I do think others - not yourself - are only too happy to focus on the isolated actions / statement of individuals in order to disengage from the issues being discussed, which naturally speaks volumes.
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No makes sense mate, and that’s where we are different ‘cos I’m seeing the Police and capitalism stuff as the main aims of the BLM movement (not saying I’m correct but it’s as I see it).
Good to debate sensibly and politely with you. Just going for a long run so I’ll be back later
 
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Staines R's said:
No makes sense mate, and that’s where we are different ‘cos I’m seeing the Police and capitalism stuff as the main aims of the BLM movement (not saying I’m correct but it’s as I see it).
Good to debate sensibly and politely with you. Just going for a long run so I’ll be back later
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Enjoy the run - I can understand your position, especially given the family connection you kindly detailed for us a while back.
 
Goldhawk-Road said:
He's doing ok. He made the right decision on RLB, and the Left of Labour are quiet while his ratings rise. But he hasn't really been tested yet on a positive basis - he's a cautious lawyer, and when asked what his policy is on a difficult matter, he has a habit of saying he'd "look" at it, set up a task force and take soundings. If he fails that test, there'll be problems within the party
Click to expand...

I thought he was superb in his first few PMQs but seems to have been a lot less effective the last few. Not awful Corbyn levels, but that's hardly the bar he should aspire to. I think cautious is the right word.
 
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