I'd look first at parents. Asian's have a reputation for parents that are ferociously ambitious for their kids. Tiger mums etc. Asians start businesses. A lot run shops, some are incredibly successful with chains of shops, or successful restaurants. I wish I had a pound for every ex-black gangster of African or West Indian heritage that was brought up in a large family by his mum, and admitted to being a handful when he turned 12 and looking for a strong experienced male to guide him, in the absence of a father. Who do they turn to? Senior black gang members who give them wads of cash to carry drugs or guns for them. And then they're into the live fast, die young lifestyle of a gangster. Rap often reflects their attitude, being proud to be outside society (Tupac - thug life etc) - and of course, All Cops Are Bastards.
You are looking on the US website to be fair Wills...and I’m only assuming the aims stated on the ‘go fund me’ page are official otherwise someone is making a mint out of the name BLM I find your second point rather bizarre.....I mean this is a thread to debate (or so I thought). I didn’t think you wanted it to be some echo chamber, where everyone has to agree with each other’s views. I quite clearly don’t agree with the BLM movement and find it rather devisive to the working class struggle, by pitting people against each other. I also find it rather hypocritical of people picking and choosing which of the clearly laid out aims of BLM that they want to support and conveniently ignoring the others......but that’s just my view and I feel we’ve debated it like adults and not resorted to childish insults. Isn’t that what this thread is all about mate ?
I saw this on Linkedin today, and thought it very apt for this place.... I’m sick of covid-19. I’m sick of black vs. white. I’m sick of Tory vs. Labour. I’m sick of gay vs. straight. I’m sick of Christians vs atheists. I’m REALLY sick of the media. I’m sick of no one being allowed to think what they want & feel what they do without offending someone. I am sick of people blaming the whole for the sins of a few. We’re one race—the human race. You want to support Boris Johnson? You do so. It’s your choice. You want to support Kier Starmer ? Fine... also your choice! You want to believe in God? Okay, believe in God. You want to believe in magical creatures that fly around & sprinkle fairy dust to make life better? Awesome... you do so. BUT stop thrusting your beliefs on others and not being able to deal with the fact that they don’t have the same exact mind-set as you. Having our own minds is what makes us all individual and beautiful. If you can’t handle the fact that you may have a friend that has opposing views as you, then you are not any better than the bigots and the racists. I don’t have to agree with everything you believe to be a decent human being and your friend
Well said sir. But time to get crunchy. What do you really think of your neighbours up there in Scotland?
I suspected you may say that, and Stortford put forward the same idea. It's almost certainly a factor, and probably a big one. I'd want to explore two things further to understand how much of a factor that is: (1) What are the rates of single parent families in poorer caucasian demographics - and are the comparative life outcomes (education, judicial treatment) etc similar for these two groups (2) What are the rates of single parent families for families in countries such as Jamaica, and how those rates compare to Jamaican families in the UK - to understand if this is a cultural issue, or an issue which arises because of how cultures are treated within the UK. Hope that makes sense? I think there are two other significant factors as to why it's easier for someone from an Asian background to 'achieve more' in the UK than someone from a Black African/Caribbean background. (a) Black people were historically treated far worse than people from an Asian background. I won't repeat the details of the brutality of the slave trade in full here, with humans treated worse than cattle, tied up and thrown overboard to stop infection spreading to the other 'cattle' chained up in boxes on a ship. This level of brutality and dehaminsation was far worse than anything experienced by the Asian communities during the period of Empire. Dehuamnisation is the key word there for me as I don't think it's possible - let alone easy - for that sort of ingrained mindset to be overcome in a generation or two. It took decades to bring about the end of formal segregation, and will take decades to fully repair the psychological impact of the dehumanisation of those with black skin. I appreciate this is hard to 'prove', but I hope you can at least see the logic. (b) I think the immigration pattern of Asians into the UK has been very different from that of Black African/Caribbean people. A prominent example is that East African Asians were typically well educated and in Government / Administrative posts in East Africa (placed there by Empire). Hardly a surprise that when this cohort of people emigrated to the UK, they outperformed individuals from the Caribbean who came to the UK to do vocational work like nursing? I don't in any way reject the idea that the issue of single-parent families in Afro-Caribbean UK cultures has an impact on the outcomes of the kids who grow up in those single parent families. But I do think we then need to explore why there is a higher rate of single parent families in those cultures to start with and look at the other important factors. And those other underpinning factors are partially what the BLM movement speaks to.
I've been accepted into their society, and have made the cultural adjustments that I needed to integrate, whilst retaining my London roots. I've never had an issue with anyone up here due to my nationality - I've been here 20 years. So, in answer to your question - I love them all!!
Good thoughtful post Raving I'm sure I read somewhere that poor white males in some parts of the country had the worst educational attainment record - with single parent, unemployed parent etc backgrounds a significant factor in this ie very often lack of structure to those young people's lives so they felt no incentive or pressure to work hard at school They don't of course generally suffer from the negative stigma (not sure I've phrased that correctly) of being young and black Many Asians coming into the UK did / do come directly from (for example) Pakistan, and have moved because they already have relatives here, get married, come to university etc. What is noticeable in the Northern ex Milltown belt (Burnley, Blackburn, Bradford etc) is that many formed largely self supporting communities and that wealth creation followed as those businesses expanded. Many older immigrants still don't speak English well or as a first language The UK has always had waves of immigration (My ancestors came over for a bit of raping and pillaging, though somewhere along the way the tall and blond features have definitely disappeared) and in my view this is one of the strengths this country has - a diverse and generally welcoming population. I've worked and travelled extensively in central Europe and the Far East - countries far less tolerant than the UK whatever the wokes would have us believe
Just checked on the UK Gov website (bit out of date - 2015/16 entry year) % of pupils getting A*-C in GCSE Maths and English: Best - Chinese 83% Worst - White on free school meals 34%; non FSM 67% Black - FSM 49%; non FSM 62%
My view entirely. Having said that I must say there have been some excellent posts from all sides on this BLM issue, it goes to show just how complex this whole issue is and there really is no easy solution that will satisfy everyone. The intolerance of social media really fuels so much discord...
I’ll read your reply later Wills....at work between jobs so wouldn’t be able to give it the attention it deserves.
Very good, but what if your 'friend' is a racist or a homophobe? Those aren't legitimate 'opposing views' in my opinion.
I'd suggest that if you have "friends" of that ilk you re-evaluate your friendships. Being a Chelsea supporter isn't a legitimate view in my opinion, but I still manage to get on with my brother-in-law....
It would indeed by interesting to see the statistics comparing white/black i.e. African and Caribbean, and also black UK/ black Jamaican. I'm not necessarily saying the black UK population has more single mothers than white - I don't know - but it does seem that those black children may suffer more adversely from not having a father figure/figure of authority in their lives, than white children. When immigrants came over from the W.I. in the 1950's they were mostly conservative, god-fearing family units. It may be that the changes to liberalism in the 1960's and 1970's caused more problems in the black community than the white community. Slavery - I'm going to need a lot more convincing that something that happened to other people two centuries ago is still impacting people today, other than as an excuse for victimhood. I won't make the gruesome comparison of which is worst, slavery or the Holocaust where 6 million Jewish people were deliberately put to death, but if the slavery theory works to affect the black community, how is it that the Jewish community have put the horrors on Continental Europe (within living memory of some) behind them? Those Jewish victims that survived and their descendants will talk about what happened - it must not be forgotten - but they don't use it as an excuse for underachievement. They've pushed on, and on the whole, have made great successes with their lives. I accept your point about inheriting Ugandan etc Asian business people. But, as Stortford has said, many Asians came straight to the UK from Pakistan, India, Sri Lanka etc and have started successful businesses. I love it when I see a successful Black Brit in any field - of course, we see it in sport, but I'd like to see more businesses opening up run by Black Brits. And I'd like to see less victimhood. Where there are racist cops, they have to be weeded out and got rid of. And I want to see the police use body cameras at all times and not be able to switch them off unilaterally. But I do have sympathy with the police too, because we know there are a lot of knives out there, and the police have to act. It was a joke but true that in days past, if white criminals got nabbed, there was an element of "I'll come quietly". Where there have been black deaths in custody, while I do not absolve the police of responsibility if and when it is due, there does seem to be a tendency for black suspects to question authority and fight the police physically. Rayshard Brooks was a case in point. Rather than go down to the station with the cops and sort stuff out, he decides to take them on in a fight, steals a taser and fires it at one of them. What happened next was totally unjustified, and one of the cops has been charged with murder. But the fact is, if Brooks had gone quietly, he would be alive and a free man today.
This may not take into account kids that have dropped out of school and never taken a GCSE It does suggest that there is an entrenched underperforming section of the poorest part of the white community
I agree with a lot in there but the only thing I would say is that if your background is poor and underprivileged and that has been the case for your ancestors going back through several generations it is very easy to develop a perpetual victim culture and that is something that gets reinforced from time to time by the actions of certain politicians and their advisers. It would be nice to think that the records won't be altered white washed or simply erased when the inquest into the Windrush scandal is eventually held. Call me a cynic if you like but I would not trust any politician to be honest and open about this in due course. We live in a society where it is unfashionable for a politician to behave with honour - the interests of the party and their own ambition have brought us to the precipice now where nobody has any trust or respect for any politician. On a less serious (more serious?) note do you self -flagellate at night if you exceed your two sentence rule when posting on any subject on this forum? That post is about ten times longer than your usual offerings on any subject and how I have enjoyed your complaints when I've gone on a bit.
