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Off Topic The Politics Thread

Discussion in 'Queens Park Rangers' started by Stroller, Jun 25, 2015.

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Should the UK remain a part of the EU or leave?

Poll closed Jun 24, 2016.
  1. Stay in

    56 vote(s)
    47.9%
  2. Get out

    61 vote(s)
    52.1%
  1. Goldhawk-Road

    Goldhawk-Road Well-Known Member

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    Depends where there tax domicile is. In the UK, the test is living here for more than 6 months, I think. Then you pay UK tax on worldwide earnings
     
    #43901
  2. Sooperhoop

    Sooperhoop Well-Known Member

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    Gina 'Me Me Me' Miller obviously not been getting enough publicity recently, JoLyon Moron will be most upset it's not about him...

     
    #43902
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  3. BobbyD

    BobbyD President

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    I understand about non dom (the 183 days in uk) but if someone has a company in the uk, draws out dividends and doesnt pay tax on it because they are not a uk tax
    resident (i might be wrong on paying tax on these) then i don't think thats right.

    Similar to how multi nationals transfer their profits away.
     
    #43903
  4. Quite Possibly Raving

    Quite Possibly Raving Well-Known Member

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    Presumably part of the reason Boris gave up his US citizenship.
     
    #43904
  5. GoldhawkRoad

    GoldhawkRoad Well-Known Member

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    Quite possibly. The IRS has a long reach
     
    #43905
  6. ELLERS

    ELLERS Well-Known Member

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    Another voice who will disappear after the Tories win. Saying that I am sure they will try a few more court cases to try and overturn Brexit.
     
    #43906
  7. Frome-Ranger

    Frome-Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Ah that's just glorious.
     
    #43907
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  8. Frome-Ranger

    Frome-Ranger Well-Known Member

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  9. Frome-Ranger

    Frome-Ranger Well-Known Member

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    please log in to view this image
     
    #43909
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  10. Sooperhoop

    Sooperhoop Well-Known Member

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  11. GoldhawkRoad

    GoldhawkRoad Well-Known Member

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    Corbyn sunk down in his chair, squirming under Neil's questioning. There must be a law to protect the elderly!
     
    #43911
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  12. Stroller

    Stroller Well-Known Member

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    Copied from FB, but it's so good it would be wrong not to share. I challenge the Tories on here to read it all...…….

    There's an election coming.

    Home Secretary and idiot, Priti Patel, after being told that 4 in 10 kids in parts of Barrow are born into poverty, stands IN A FOOD BANK, arguing that the government isn't to blame for poverty. Satire died a long time ago. We've only despair left now and even she is struggling for breath.

    "The government isn't to blame for poverty."

    Settle in folks, it's gonna be a bumpy ride.

    Since 2010, we've endured...

    Central government funding for local authorities cut by almost 50%
    https://www.independent.co.uk/…/local-councils-finances-bud…

    Make that around 60%
    https://www.local.gov.uk/…/lga-briefing-debate-local-govern…

    The greatest reductions in local authority spending have occurred in already impoverished northern cities and poor London boroughs.
    https://www.theguardian.com/…/territorial-injustice-on-rise…

    8% cuts in spending per pupil since 2009.The worst fall in education spending since the 70s.
    https://www.theguardian.com/…/education-spending-fall-from-…

    Youth services funding cut by 70% since 2010. Some areas (like my hometown, Gateshead) as high as 96%.

    The Tories are pledging £500m for youth services, only about £380m short of the £880m THEY'VE ALREADY CUT!
    https://www.itv.com/…/youth-services-funding-cut-by-69-sin…/

    600k more children in poverty since 2012 and the number of children getting food from food banks tripled.

    4.1 million children in poverty in 2017/18, up 50% from 2010.
    https://cpag.org.uk/child-p…/child-poverty-facts-and-figures

    Child poverty increases have mainly been a result of public sector pay freezes and benefit cuts, weak wage growth and insecure work (e.g. zero hours contracts).
    https://www.independent.co.uk/…/child-poverty-increases-ben…

    Number of food bank parcels distributed has risen from 40k to around 1.2 million between 2010-2017.

    Let me say it loud for the folks at the back.... PEOPLE CAN'T AFFORD TO BUY FOOD!
    https://fullfact.org/economy/how-many-people-use-food-banks/

    In-work poverty at record highs. Almost 3 million children in poverty come from working families. That means people who have jobs still can't afford to live a decent life.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-47734733

    Around 120k deaths linked to Tory austerity https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/7/11/e017722

    Which bit of this isn't the government's doing?

    I'm not finished.

    I've not even mentioned the harmful and completely ineffective benefits sanctions that have removed benefits from the most vulnerable in society for incredibly spurious reasons, keeping them trapped in a cycle of poverty from which it's nigh on impossible to escape.
    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/…/benefit-sanctions-are-harmful-an…/

    Or the fact that people with disabilities are being routinely discriminated against by the government. https://www.theguardian.com/…/disabled-people-million-benef…

    If you're not happy with me using the Guardian as a source, here's the actual research study. Read that instead if you like.
    https://www.ingentaconnect.com/…/2017/000…/00000002/art00002

    But sure, poverty is nothing to do with the government, right? If only poor people would just stop being so bloody poor.

    I've not yet mentioned the number of people dying after being declared fit to work by the DWP under this Tory government. At least they won't have to worry about whether to pay bills or eat now though, eh?
    https://www.gov.uk/…/mortality-statistics-esa-ib-and-sda-cl…
    https://inews.co.uk/…/man-dies-while-queuing-at-job-centre-…

    Let's not forget the homeless! Let's not forget the 165% increase in homelessness since the Tories took over in 2010.
    https://metro.co.uk/…/165-increase-homelessness-since-tori…/

    ...not including the "hidden homeless" (unsafe, temporary accommodation, couch surfing, etc.)
    https://www.theguardian.com/…/sharp-rise-in-number-of-homel…

    And while we're on the subject, we shouldn't forget the 51% increase in deaths among homeless people since 2013 (when they started counting!)
    https://www.ons.gov.uk/…/deathsofhomelesspeopleinengla…/2018

    People aren't just choosing to become homeless by the way. 1 in 4 people applying for council support in 2018/19 were IN PAID WORK.
    https://www.theguardian.com/…/25pc-households-at-risk-of-ho…

    And over half of the homeless families in England in 2019 were in work.
    https://england.shelter.org.uk/…/over_half_of_homeless_fami…

    Speaking of homes....

    What about the 2015 Tory promise to build 200,000 affordable starter homes? Want to know how many have been built thus far?
    Literally none. Not a single one.
    https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/…/Ministers-failed-deliver-pr…

    So what else has been going on during this last 9 years? Well, despite austerity measures being introduced by the coalition government in 2010 to eliminate the budget deficit by 2014-15...

    From 2010 to 2019, total gross government debt increased by £643 billion. I'll say that again. Six Hundred and Forty-Three Billion Pounds. https://www.economicshelp.org/…/debt-under-conservatives-2…/

    Put another (more useful) way, the national debt has risen from 65% of GDP in May, 2010 to 83% in 2019.
    https://fullfact.org/economy/public-debt/

    So, given that it's made things worse in every conceivable way, what the **** has Tory austerity been for?

    Well, the incomes of the richest fifth of households grew by 7.1% per cent in 2018, while the incomes of the poorest fifth of households fell by 1.5 per cent. So there's a clue.
    https://www.businessleader.co.uk/why-are-the-the-rich-ge…/…/

    While taxing those with higher incomes might seem unfair on the surface of it (if you're dumb), higher taxes for richer households (up £1,300 on average) are more than offset by rising wages.

    Labour's plan to raise taxes on those earning over 80k have been met with scorn.... by those earning over 80k.

    Like this guy who thinks 80k doesn't put him in the top 5% of earners, but is actually dead wrong. Like he's literally incorrect.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/50517136…

    And that's the issue. He's looking down instead of up. He's been convinced that people earning less than him (and his paltry 80k) are 'getting away' with paying less tax.

    "They'd be getting a break that I wouldn't get and that would be unfair. Why should they pay less tax than me?"
    Well it's because they don't have as much money as you, dummy. You should be looking up, not down.

    We've been brainwashed into thinking that it's the people at the bottom who are the problem. But again, let's just look at facts and evidence. Despite what you might get from Channel 5 poverty-porn and Daily Mail headlines HMRC and DWP lose more money via their own incompetence than they do from benefit fraud. Significantly more in fact.
    https://universalcreditsuffer.com/…/hmrc-dwp-figures-show-…/

    Slightly older figures here, but the approximately £1.2 billion lost to benefit fraud (yes it does happen), is actually less than the £1.5 billion not paid out to people who could legitimately claim.

    And let's compare that to the £34 billion lost to tax avoidance and evasion. Now compare who you should be directing your anger towards with who you actually direct your anger towards and just ask yourself why that is.
    https://www.channel4.com/…/factcheck-benefits-fraud-tax-eva…

    A third of the UK’s super rich have donated £50million to the Tories since 2005 – and 10 of our 151 billionaires have also donated. The Tory government is handing them almost £100billion in tax breaks and in corporate giveaways over the next four years.
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/…/tories-handing-100bn-tax-breaks-…

    People who have less than you aren't getting more than you.... because they have less than you. Not rocket science, is it?

    And in any case, if we take a look at the actual maths (not the 'made up in our minds' maths), we can see that if you're earning £81,000, you'd be paying a whopping £4.17 a month extra under labour proposals. That's very nearly five whole pounds! ... THAT YOU CAN AFFORD BECAUSE YOU EARN OVER £80k A YEAR.
    https://calculate.forlabour.com/

    The answers are all right there, we just have to care to ask the right questions.

    The question is, do we actually care? Well the poverty and homelessness figures above should at least concern you. Just because you're in work, doesn't mean you're drinking the same champagne as Jacob Rees Mogg.

    Speaking of whom...

    The haunted lamppost, who has somehow convinced idiots to think of him as a man of the people, has reportedly earned around £7m from investments since the Referendum, while the people he's supposedly a man of just get poorer and poorer...
    https://www.channel4.com/…/brexiteer-jacob-rees-mogg-estima…

    But let's leave Brexit and the referendum to one side for now. How are the Tories going to give us the "better" (than themselves) that we apparently deserve?

    Let's look at what they're promising.

    We'll start with the 40 new hospitals across England over the next decade. Well if the progress they've made on the 200k starter homes is anything to go by, I wouldn't hold my breath.

    But in any case, while it might make a good soundbite, it's not even nearly true. In reality they're pledging money for 6 trusts to start upgrading, and "seed funding" for another 38 hospitals to start developing plans (no building work).
    https://fullfact.org/health/six-hospitals-not-forty/

    That's not the same as 40 new hospitals. But never let the truth get in the way of a good story, eh?

    The Tories deny that the NHS is up for sale. I hate to break it to you, but it already is.

    The NHS is critically underfunded in a number of areas. Fewer doctors, nurses, hospital beds, and residential care beds per 1000 population than several countries across Europe
    https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/…/spending-and-availability-he…

    NHS nurses are chronically underpaid (Tory public sector pay freeze resulting in a real terms pay cut of 14% from 2010-2017), and are resorting to taking second jobs and using food banks to get by.
    https://www.nursingtimes.net/…/show-me-the-money-if-nurses…/

    33,000 nurses quit the profession in 2016-17, up 20% from 2012-13. More nurses from the EU left in 2016-17 than the year before. I wonder what that might be about! https://www.theguardian.com/…/nhs-england-hospital-staffing…

    As of 2017, the NHS was about 40,000 nurses short.
    https://fullfact.org/health/are-we-short-40000-nurses/

    The Tories are taking the NHS to breaking point, which, along with the 2012 Health and Social Care Act, opens the door for more and more contracts to be awarded to private health care providers.

    And before you say it, no it isn't health tourism that is costing the NHS. Deliberate heatlh tourism costs about 0.3% of total NHS spending. IT'S NOTHING TO WITH 'FORINERS'!
    https://fullfact.org/health/health-tourism-whats-cost/

    Anyway, the proportion of government health spending in England going to private providers has risen by more than three-quarters in the last decade and now stands at 7.3%, according to official figures for 2018/19
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50266347

    In all fairness, this is the continuation of a trend that has been going on longer than this government has been in power. However...

    Jeremy Hunt, given the job of Health Secretary from September 2012 - July 2018, literally (co)wrote the book on how to privatise the NHS
    https://www.independent.co.uk/…/jeremy-hunt-privatise-nhs-t…

    And here's a list of MPs with ties to private health care providers. You'll notice there are one or two Tories on it.
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/…/selling-nhs-profit-full-list-464…

    You don't have to be Poirot to figure out that the Tories saying they're the party of the NHS is a bit like Josef Mengele putting "people skills" down as one of his key strengths.

    And while we're talking about Jeremy Hunt, do we remember his promise to recruit 5,000 more GPs? Well, by 2017, there were more than 1200 fewer than when he took office.
    https://www.independent.co.uk/…/gps-nhs-numbers-drop-doctor…

    And if none of that is worrying you, what about Boris Johnson, who is repeatedly telling you that the NHS is not for sale, using taxpayer funds to host the lavish launch of a think tank campaigning to let American corporations run NHS hospitals?
    https://twitter.com/ByDonkeys/status/1196685828627533824…

    But its all okay, because another of the Conservatives 2019 pledges is that they'll recruit 50,000 new nurses! Yay! Except that upon closer inspection, it's not that at all. It's yet another lie. 18,500 of these nurses won't be new at all, they'll be existing nurses that the government will somehow convince not to leave, which will be tough going given everything I've just said. And even then, by Nicky Morgan's own admission these 50,000 partially mythical nurses won't appear for at least 5 years. Remember the 33,000 nurses quit in 2016/17? Well if even half that number leaves each year for the next 5 years... well, you do the math(s). https://www.independent.co.uk/…/boris-johnson-general-elect…

    Right, let's move on. What about the 20,000 new police on the streets being promised? Well, even if that actually happens, first of all, it's just a replacement of the 20,000 that were lost due to Tory cuts since 2010.
    https://www.channel4.com/…/factcheck-are-the-conservatives-…

    And in order to replace those who leave or retire (Johnson has promised the 20k new offices will be *in addition to current numbers*), the police would actually need to hire around 50,000 new offices.
    https://www.independent.co.uk/…/boris-johnson-police-office…

    Why should we believe a word the conservatives say? Apart from all of the stuff in this thread they are a party of people who consider the truth to be whatever's convenient.

    Editing videos of interviews with labour MPs to mislead the public. Here's one with Kier Starmer...
    https://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/…/keir-starmer-good-morning-…

    https://fullfact.org/news/keir-starmer-gmb/

    And another with Jess Phillips...
    https://www.indy100.com/…/jess-phillips-video-doctored-tori…

    And there was the rebrand of their official Twitter account as a fact checking service which then proceeded to tweet anti-Corbyn and pro-Johnson messages during the first live TV debate.
    https://metro.co.uk/…/conservative-chairman-told-factcheck…/

    Setting up a fake Labour manifesto website!
    https://www.independent.co.uk/…/tory-fake-labour-manifesto-…

    Lies about the costings in their own manifesto
    https://ftalphaville.ft.com/…/The--3bn-hole-in-the-Tory-ma…/

    Johnson's refusal to release a report into Russian influence in UK politics.
    https://edition.cnn.com/…/russia-report-uk-elect…/index.html

    Lies about immigration.
    https://news.yahoo.com/boris-johnsons-immigration-lies-pale…

    Lies on buses.
    https://www.rt.com/…/460538-boris-johnson-brexit-costs-sum…/

    And lies about buses!
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/…/boris-johnson-i-make-models-of-buses

    You didn't think he actually makes model buses in his spare time, did you? After this stunt, guess what comes up if you Google 'Boris Johnson Bus'? Hint: it's not the £350 million thing!

    Tell you what, just read this.
    https://boris-johnson-lies.com/

    The problem is, we don't care any more. Johnson supporters don't care that he's an objectively racist, sexist, homophobic, lying, moron.

    We no longer care about facts and evidence in making decisions about who is suitable to lead the country.

    We don't care about incompetence.
    https://www.independent.co.uk/…/chris-grayling-seaborne-fre…

    We don't care about racism.
    https://www.standard.co.uk/…/windrush-generation-deaths-thr…

    We don't care about edited news footage that removes Boris Johnson being laughed at by an audience.
    https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1198261302898176000…

    We don't care about edited news footage that replaces Boris Johnson looking disheveled and placing a wreath upside down with footage from 2016 when he had slightly neater hair.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-50374630

    We don't care about right-wing, billionaire, Tory donors who stand to gain from a Tory government influencing what we think at every turn.
    https://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/…/jeremy-corbyn-dancing-reme…

    Every turn. Whether you're a Corbyn fan or not, and I know many people aren't, you can't deny that he is the most smeared politician in history. And that surely that has an impact on public opinion.
    https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/…/jeremy-corbyn-is…/18/07/

    We don't care about blaming victims of Grenfell for their own deaths and not having the common sense not to die.
    https://metro.co.uk/…/jacob-rees-mogg-says-grenfell-victim…/

    We don't care about anything.

    ****ing hell, I mean I shouldn't have had to really say anything beyond child poverty.

    "600k more children in poverty since 2012 and the number of children getting food from food banks tripled. 4.1 million children in poverty in 2017/18, up 50% from 2010."

    That should be enough!

    But Jeremy Corbyn has wonky glasses.
    But Jeremy Corbyn wore a scruffy coat.
    But Jeremy Corbyn fell asleep on a train.

    And Ed Miliband ate a sandwich funny
    And Gordon Brown called a bigot a bigot
    Yes, we know.

    At this point, I'm not even advocating for Labour or Jeremy Corbyn. After 9 years of Tories, I'd take a ****ing potted plant or a bag of crisps running the country over Johnson and co.

    But ask yourselves, in the face of all the evidence, why you think the Tories are fit to run the country and Corbyn isn't.

    Why, specifically, other than just saying Corbyn isn't fit to run the country, do you think Corbyn isn't fit to run the country?

    Let's hear it. Genuinely interested. Other than just repeating daily mail and sun headlines, what have you actually got?

    And in the face of all the evidence, what reasons do you actually have for voting conservative. Again, genuinely interested.

    Answers on a goddammed postcard please.

    ********UPDATE********

    Well this seems to have taken off somewhat! The responses have been largely positive which is great, but also an indication that this is just bouncing round a fairly left-leaning echo chamber. So please do share outside your circle if you're brave enough!

    There are a few negative responses though, which is good. Mostly those responses go something like this:

    "This is all nonsense."

    "Oh. Okay, which bit specifically do you disagree with?"

    "It's just rubbish. Jeremy Corbyn is a terrorist sympathiser. Boris will sort all of this mess out."

    "But what about all of the, you know, facts and evidence? Other than just repeating headlines, do you have any actual counter arguments or other evidence I may have not considered?"

    "... ... ... ..."

    So to those people, who argue in the face of overwhelming evidence without any actual substantive argument, please know that it's okay to be wrong sometimes. It's not nice feeling. There's a slight rising heat, a feeling of embarrassment, a hit to the self-esteem that doesn't feel good. I've been wrong before, I know that feeling.

    And it's human nature to dig our heels in at that point. It's called the backfire effect. When we're presented with evidence that goes against what we believe, we're more likely to hold on more tightly to what we already think than to change our minds. It's perfectly natural to do that. It's how our brains work.

    But just see if you can notice when that's happening, because if we can just loosen our grip, even a tiny bit, and be willing to accept that awkward feeling for a moment, then it can be liberating. We can learn things we didn't know before. We can see alternative perspectives we might not have considered. And we can have opinions (whatever those opinions turn out to be) that are based on knowledge and understanding rather than on piss and vinegar.

    I doubt you've read this far, but thanks if you have.
     
    #43912
  13. Sooperhoop

    Sooperhoop Well-Known Member

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    F*ck me, Kiwi is really gonna be pissed off now...:grin:
     
    #43913
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  14. ELLERS

    ELLERS Well-Known Member

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    Bloody hell the election will be over before I read all that! Can’t you just say in 10 words what it says?
     
    #43914
  15. BobbyD

    BobbyD President

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    Yeah ive read it (not the articles themselves, it goes via fb) but there are some points i agree and some i disagree with.

    Just also seen mcneils character assassination of corbyn too. I do like mcneil but what he did wasnt very fair on corbyn
     
    #43915
  16. ELLERS

    ELLERS Well-Known Member

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    He did the same to Kranky last night and will tear Boris a new one as well.
     
    #43916
  17. BobbyD

    BobbyD President

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    Well i generally enjoy him tearing into people when they are normally dumb or wrong (he did it the other day to the tory bird about but homes). I think he just sounded rude and railroady in the short clip i saw with corbyn. He had enough ammo from the rabbi this morning without having to force words into corbyns mouth
     
    #43917
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  18. GoldhawkRoad

    GoldhawkRoad Well-Known Member

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    Corbyn wanted to answer his own questions. You don't do that with Andrew Neil
     
    #43918
  19. ELLERS

    ELLERS Well-Known Member

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    Not seen full chat yet so will later.
     
    #43919
  20. Star of David Bardsley

    Star of David Bardsley 2023 Funniest Poster

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    He’s a good guy. Like a less emotional David Schneider.
     
    #43920

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