Off Topic Politics Thread

[Farked19]

Making up lies about the EU goes back far further than that. The Scum was doing it n the 80's with square bananas . Same time they said Red Ken had banned Baa Baa Blacksheep as racialist.

 

[shoot_spiderman]

Making up lies about the EU goes back far further than that. The Scum was doing it n the 80's with square bananas . Same time they said Red Ken had banned Baa Baa Blacksheep as racialist.

Also ...
Manhole covers
Black bags
Straight cucumbers

 

[ChilcoSaint]

I totally agree. But as ISIRTP said, they're value judgments, and even some Remainers would disagree that the EU ticks all of those boxes reliably.

I certainly believe very strongly that the EU ticks the security and crime box. The EU has been an incredible force for peace since its inception: this in fact was the reason Churchill suggested something like the EU was formed in the first place. Both the Balkan conflict and the Irish Troubles were ended under the auspices of the EU, and any remaining tensions in those regions have been ameliorated by the trade and cooperation which the EU has enabled. As has been discussed many times on here, any attempt to reintroduce customs checks at the Irish border is almost certain to lead to the resurrection of violence.

The European Arrest Warrant and Europol have also been major factors in tackling organised crime, people trafficking, and *****phile rings, to name but a few, and the UK will be worse off without them.

As for benefitting some regions over others, well that’s kind of the whole point of the EU right there. Scotland, Cornwall, and many towns and cities around the UK have received EU funding to tackle poverty, unemployment, and rural deprivation in those areas. Some people argue that it’s our own money coming back, but that only stands up if you believe the lie that we put more into the EU than we get back, and in any case, why didn’t our own government help those areas when they needed help?

 

[King Grimlock]

The best deal with Europe is the one we have now. True when this was first said, True now.

 

[Schad]

I certainly believe very strongly that the EU ticks the security and crime box. The EU has been an incredible force for peace since its inception: this in fact was the reason Churchill suggested something like the EU was formed in the first place. Both the Balkan conflict and the Irish Troubles were ended under the auspices of the EU, and any remaining tensions in those regions have been ameliorated by the trade and cooperation which the EU has enabled. As has been discussed many times on here, any attempt to reintroduce customs checks at the Irish border is almost certain to lead to the resurrection of violence.

The European Arrest Warrant and Europol have also been major factors in tackling organised crime, people trafficking, and *****phile rings, to name but a few, and the UK will be worse off without them.

As for benefitting some regions over others, well that’s kind of the whole point of the EU right there. Scotland, Cornwall, and many towns and cities around the UK have received EU funding to tackle poverty, unemployment, and rural deprivation in those areas. Some people argue that it’s our own money coming back, but that only stands up if you believe the lie that we put more into the EU than we get back, and in any case, why didn’t our own government help those areas when they needed help?

Again, I do not disagree with any of that in the main. The problem is that, rather than forcefully arguing that the EU does fulfill those categories, the framework instead asks open-ended questions which are filled in by the preexisting biases of the individual, and if you put a referendum up asking people to withdraw from the EU if it failed at least one of those criteria in their minds, that referendum would pass handily.

 

[ChilcoSaint]

Again, I do not disagree with any of that in the main. The problem is that, rather than forcefully arguing that the EU does fulfill those categories, the framework instead asks open-ended questions which are filled in by the preexisting biases of the individual, and if you put a referendum up asking people to withdraw from the EU if it failed at least one of those criteria in their minds, that referendum would pass handily.

But you're missing the point. Labour wouldn't recommend a deal that failed any of their 6 tests. If they couldn't get a deal which passed all 6, they would recommend remaining.

 

[shoot_spiderman]

I totally agree. But as ISIRTP said, they're value judgments, and even some Remainers would disagree that the EU ticks all of those boxes reliably.

Just to say why I think these are a perfectly good first negotiating stance for Corbyn to take in his own eyes

1. EU Relationship. He wants to escape some EU controls not a cooperative relationship

2. Customs Union. As above

3. Migration. Isn’t this what most people want. Not sure what our current policy is as government don’t even use controls available in EU

4. Workers Rights. At huge risk when we leave

5. Cross border crime. At risk when we leave

6. Regions. Shouldn’t make things worse although they are already bad enough but not because of EU because of UK

As regards this list for Remain the issue is obviously that 3 and 6 aren’t currently true whoever you choose to blame

 

[Schad]

But you're missing the point. Labour wouldn't recommend a deal that failed any of their 6 tests. If they couldn't get a deal which passed all 6, they would recommend remaining.

No such deal exists or can exist. Any deal that seems like it wholly satisfies all six conditions without fail does so only because the observer desperately wants to believe that it does.

 

[shoot_spiderman]

But you're missing the point. Labour wouldn't recommend a deal that failed any of their 6 tests. If they couldn't get a deal which passed all 6, they would recommend remaining.

Not sure I can read or type fast enough here but

ISIRTP is saying they can’t be achieved so it’s a hidden manifesto to Remain under a banner to Leave

 

[Beddy]

I agree in the main, but just because “many people believe” something doesn’t make it true. That, in a nutshell, has always been the problem with the EU, that people believe complete nonsense if they see it in print.

Surely though Chilcs that's got to work both ways?

 

[St. Luigi Scrosoppi]

If anyone thinks that voting for Johnson is the answer then they haven't understood the question.

 

[Beddy]

Am I misunderstanding something.................The customs union aside are not things like cooperation military wise and policing and a few other things worrying the remainers up during further negotiation once Brexit is agreed. Reference to Churchill and forming an alliance in the EU was because two world wars had been started there but it was meant to include the Russians who declined to be part of it. (That was my understanding)

 

[StJabbo1]

I agree in the main, but just because “many people believe” something doesn’t make it true. That, in a nutshell, has always been the problem with the EU, that people believe complete nonsense if they see it in print. The practice of making up lies about the EU originated in the early 2000’s with a young journalist working at the Daily Telegraph. He went on to make a career in lying generally, his name was Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson.

The perception of the EU as portrayed in the Barclay brothers, Rothermere and Murdoch rags is an example of propaganda that twists reality. Spaffer Johnson a leading exponent.

 

[VocalMinority]

The EU have handled this Brexit situation more efficiently, more democratically and overall far better than our government has.

 

[fatletiss]

I understand your concern as the constituency has been LD comparatively recently. However it would require a swing of nearly 25% for a Labour to los it. As for Aberdeen South, good as gone for The Tories. My prediction north of the border is that six weeks from now there will no blue in the whole of Scotland. I just hope I can get political asylum there after independence.

My Auntie lives there. I think that gets me in.

 

[StJabbo1]

I certainly believe very strongly that the EU ticks the security and crime box. The EU has been an incredible force for peace since its inception: this in fact was the reason Churchill suggested something like the EU was formed in the first place. Both the Balkan conflict and the Irish Troubles were ended under the auspices of the EU, and any remaining tensions in those regions have been ameliorated by the trade and cooperation which the EU has enabled. As has been discussed many times on here, any attempt to reintroduce customs checks at the Irish border is almost certain to lead to the resurrection of violence.

The European Arrest Warrant and Europol have also been major factors in tackling organised crime, people trafficking, and *****phile rings, to name but a few, and the UK will be worse off without them.

As for benefitting some regions over others, well that’s kind of the whole point of the EU right there. Scotland, Cornwall, and many towns and cities around the UK have received EU funding to tackle poverty, unemployment, and rural deprivation in those areas. Some people argue that it’s our own money coming back, but that only stands up if you believe the lie that we put more into the EU than we get back, and in any case, why didn’t our own government help those areas when they needed help?

I have friends working for Europol and Dutch security who are dismayed and disbelieving when considering the effects, in both directions, that any form of brexit will have. No deal regarded as a disaster.

NB The UK will be excluded from the Galileo satellite and the security systems therein. instead will be building its own Global Navigation Satellite System.

 

[fatletiss]

Surely though Chilcs that's got to work both ways?

Are you saying we shouldn’t believe the pages and pages, or statement after statement, that have been made about how better things will be post Brexit?

 

[Beddy]

Are you saying we shouldn’t believe the pages and pages, or statement after statement, that have been made about how better things will be lost Brexit?

I'm not saying any such thing.................Surely it depends on your leaning as to what you believe is all I'm saying.

 

[AberdeenSaint]

I understand your concern as the constituency has been LD comparatively recently. However it would require a swing of nearly 25% for a Labour to los it. As for Aberdeen South, good as gone for The Tories. My prediction north of the border is that six weeks from now there will no blue in the whole of Scotland. I just hope I can get political asylum there after independence.

You`ll be welcome Farked ! And I hope you`re right.

 

[fatletiss]

I'm not saying any such thing.................Surely it depends on your leaning as to what you believe is all I'm saying.

Chill. I put it in blue.

It was a pi55 take. There hasn’t been any such statements.