Suarez Revisited

[luvgonzo]

In light of this story this morning...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/50133876

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I was wondering if anyone feels differently about what happened now that it's in the past?

I don't think I've changed at all in that I felt that there was no evidence one way or another and it was just one mans word against another. I didn't support or condemn him and just let the circus run its course.

 

[carlthejackal]

You obviously missed my earlier post in the other thread.

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Jamie Carragher apologises for the t-shirt fiasco over Suarez.

Well done Carra for recognising a serious error. The club should do the same. It was wrong and sending the wrong signal to both football and the outside world. The club was rightly condemned by many at the time.

I said it at the time and since. No player however good is greater than the club. Racism does not need us to dismiss it or belittle it to flourish. Our history regarding black players such as Barnes isn't that great is it?

 

[carlthejackal]

In light of this story this morning...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/50133876

You must log in or register to see images

I was wondering if anyone feels differently about what happened now that it's in the past?

I don't think I've changed at all in that I felt that there was no evidence one way or another and it was just one mans word against another. I didn't support or condemn him and just let the circus run its course.

It is not a case of evidence. The player has been sanctioned. Yes the team and manager would like to believe him and stand by him. But what was wrong for such a public show of support and at the same belittling the issue by such a public action. If a player was condemned as being a wife beater would we put his name on a t-shirt even if we believed him? Subsequently we found that Suarez was not to be trusted and would do anything to get his way. Lying was the least of his faults as we found out later. That man could not be trusted as far as we could throw him and we put the clubs reputation in danger for him.

 

[luvgonzo]

It is not a case of evidence. The player has been sanctioned. Yes the team and manager would like to believe him and stand by him. But what was wrong for such a public show of support and at the same belittling the issue by such a public action. If a player was condemned as being a wife beater would we put his name on a t-shirt even if we believed him? Subsequently we found that Suarez was not to be trusted and would do anything to get his way. Lying was the least of his faults as we found out later. That man could not be trusted as far as we could throw him and we put the clubs reputation in danger for him.

I imagine that they decided to support him after asking him if he did it or not and him replying that he had not said anything. The club took his word for it and decided to support someone they considered innocent. I'm not going into the did he didn't he argument though.

 

[luvgonzo]

You obviously missed my earlier post in the other thread.

Sorry I hadn't seen the other thread.

 

[jaffaSlot]

Of course it was wrong. It's no different to the B. Silva incident now though, so it will be interesting to see if he gets a similar ban.

 

[astro]

Of course it was wrong. It's no different to the B. Silva incident now though, so it will be interesting to see if he gets a similar ban.

Of course he won't, it will be swept under the rug with an offensively small fine and a promise to think about maybe attending a social media class just like Holgate's homophobia

 

[luvgonzo]

Of course it was wrong. It's no different to the B. Silva incident now though, so it will be interesting to see if he gets a similar ban.

Of course he won't, it will be swept under the rug with an offensively small fine and a promise to think about maybe attending a social media class just like Holgate's homophobia

I think there's a big difference between the 2 instances and don't feel that Silva should receive anything like the ban that Suarez had (if you take into account what Suarez was found guilty of), Silva made an inappropriate joke to a friend and it was taken as humour, both need educating that the joke is not acceptable and that in a world where we there is a fight against racism even this type of joke can do harm. Suarez (allegedly) was intentionally racist towards another person and it was no no way friendly or a "joke". I think we have to look at both instances very differently.

The examples are not great though if you are of the view that Evra lied and Suarez did nothing but that is something that will never be resolved.

 

[astro]

I think there's a big difference between the 2 instances and don't feel that Silva should receive anything like the ban that Suarez had (if you take into account what Suarez was found guilty of), Silva made an inappropriate joke to a friend and it was taken as humour, both need educating that the joke is not acceptable and that in a world where we there is a fight against racism even this type of joke can do harm. Suarez (allegedly) was intentionally racist towards another person and it was no no way friendly or a "joke". I think we have to look at both instances very differently.

The examples are not great though if you are of the view that Evra lied and Suarez did nothing but that is something that will never be resolved.

The charge against Suarez was completely unsubstaintiated and in fact refuted by independent expect testimony. It was a PR stunt orchestrated by the FA from day one.

The Silva case is totally proven. There is zero doubt.

The FA's rules don't have a "just joking with a mate" exemption. The ban should be imposed without hesitation.

 

[luvgonzo]

The charge against Suarez was completely unsubstaintiated and in fact refuted by independent expect testimony. It was a PR stunt orchestrated by the FA from day one.

The Silva case is totally proven. There is zero doubt.

The FA's rules don't have a "just joking with a mate" exemption. The ban should be imposed without hesitation.

Yeah like I said it'll depend on your view of the Suarez incident. I don't agree with your view on Silva getting a huge ban though there should be common sense applied.

 

[astro]

Yeah like I said it'll depend on your view of the Suarez incident. I don't agree with your view on Silva getting a huge ban though there should be common sense applied.

You can only choose one of consistency or common sense. Is racism something you want to start introducing grey areas on? Sometimes it's fine? Just take the ban and move on.

 

[carlthejackal]

I think there's a big difference between the 2 instances and don't feel that Silva should receive anything like the ban that Suarez had (if you take into account what Suarez was found guilty of), Silva made an inappropriate joke to a friend and it was taken as humour, both need educating that the joke is not acceptable and that in a world where we there is a fight against racism even this type of joke can do harm. Suarez (allegedly) was intentionally racist towards another person and it was no no way friendly or a "joke". I think we have to look at both instances very differently.

The examples are not great though if you are of the view that Evra lied and Suarez did nothing but that is something that will never be resolved.

You asked whether retrospection and knowing what we now know would change our views. To me there is no doubt that the club did wrong. Unfortunately some of the racist elements of our club followers (a very small minority I hope) received succour from the clubs actions.

We all know that these cases rest on one persons word against another. That is why going out on a limb to support an unreliable ultimately selfish individual was unwise. Also remember apparently he promised the clubs officials that he would shake Evra's hand then he refused. Why did he promise? He could have said I'm not doing it.

 

[luvgonzo]

You asked whether retrospection and knowing what we now know would change our views. To me there is no doubt that the club did wrong. Unfortunately some of the racist elements of our club followers (a very small minority I hope) received succour from the clubs actions.

We all know that these cases rest on one persons word against another. That is why going out on a limb to support an unreliable ultimately selfish individual was unwise. Also remember apparently he promised the clubs officials that he would shake Evra's hand then he refused. Why did he promise? He could have said I'm not doing it.

It's certainly a period in our history that I'm glad is over.

 

[saintanton]

I'm not sure what purpose is served in resurrecting this, tbh.
At the time I was of the opinion that the evidence for what Suarez said was inconclusive. I wouldn't put it past him, because he's proven himself before and since to go to considerable lengths to get what he wants. He's a bit of a ****, but then Evra is no innocent either.
Unless Evra was fluent in Spanish, and in Suarez's dialect, he wouldn't know what he heard. The word "negro" means "black" in Spanish, nothing more, so how it was used is the crucial factor.
So, still no real unequivocal outcome of what happened, and I think Carragher should have let it lie, tbh. Rightly or wrongly, the players came out in support of one of their own whom they felt had been tarnished unfairly. By apologising now, they seem to be sending out the signal that they were wrong at the time, and that he was guilty. If that's what any of them think, they should say so in plain language - if they don't think that then what are they apologising for?
It's a cosmopolitan game, so linguistic and cultural differences can cause issues like this occasionally. If any good came out of it, it is that it made people a bit more aware of the fact that racism is still an issue, and that ongoing education is required to make everyone aware of the pitfalls.

 

[johnsonsbaby]

Our history regarding black players such as Barnes isn't that great is it?

What do you mean by this?

 

[carlthejackal]

What do you mean by this?

I remember when we signed Barnes some of our supporters took exception at the club signing a black player for our first team. It is now of course inconceivable but he was harassed by our own supporters. Some rang him to say he couldn't fit in and some booed him and even threw bananas onto the pitch. And this was our own fans. Barnes himself told the story a few years ago.

 

[luvgonzo]

I'm not sure what purpose is served in resurrecting this, tbh.

It's in the news today.

 

[Bodinki]

As an outsider, and a fan of a club who has also had a player accused of making racist comments, my take is this.....
It was definitely Suarez's word against Evra, and we know that the FA need **** all evidence to charge people and dish out fines and bans and whatnot, and had I been Liverpool FC, I would have appealed and taken it to the highest courts in the land when you are banning someone with next to **** all evidence (especially when, in JT's case, he was even cleared in court), BUT......and here is the but......

The T-shirt thing was cringeworthy, the players all took Suarez's word for it that he said nothing, and we since learnt that Suarez can be trusted about as much as far as you can throw him, and as has already been mentioned, he is a ****ing idiot who has been reprimanded for biting opposition defenders, not once, not twice, but three ****ing times!! It was the public showing of support when the players, like us, knew **** all of what happened. It's like the people who try to defend Michael Jackson because they like his music, they dont know what really happened any more than the MJ haters, I just think its ridiculous to be so adamantly sure of someones guilt or innocence, based solely on whether you like them or not, and not the evidence presented (of which there was very little in the case of the Suarez/Evra incident).

 

[carlthejackal]

As an outsider, and a fan of a club who has also had a player accused of making racist comments, my take is this.....
It was definitely Suarez's word against Evra, and we know that the FA need **** all evidence to charge people and dish out fines and bans and whatnot, and had I been Liverpool FC, I would have appealed and taken it to the highest courts in the land when you are banning someone with next to **** all evidence (especially when, in JT's case, he was even cleared in court), BUT......and here is the but......

The T-shirt thing was cringeworthy, the players all took Suarez's word for it that he said nothing, and we since learnt that Suarez can be trusted about as much as far as you can throw him, and as has already been mentioned, he is a ****ing idiot who has been reprimanded for biting opposition defenders, not once, not twice, but three ****ing times!! It was the public showing of support when the players, like us, knew **** all of what happened. It's like the people who try to defend Michael Jackson because they like his music, they dont know what really happened any more than the MJ haters, I just think its ridiculous to be so adamantly sure of someones guilt or innocence, based solely on whether you like them or not, and not the evidence presented (of which there was very little in the case of the Suarez/Evra incident).

Spot on mate. That's exactly my point.

 

[luvgonzo]

Something in the world that I find interesting is this tribal defending of people, we know very little about what is actually going on in the world of the rich and famous despite the rise in social media yet we condemn or support people based on information we already know is not credible (the papers).