The var thread

[fatletiss]

Right last comment from me for now but on the flow of the game that SA mentioned then it ultimately comes down to what sort of game we want.

Do we want a game where all the drama revolves around technology, the atmosphere around var chants, and the biggest moments of joy are when some words appear on a screen.

Or do we want a game where we go along, sing "The referee's a ****er", and have that pure burst of joy and ecstasy as soon as the ball hits the back of the net?



Latter for me, all day long.

Latter for me too.



But with the major things correct

 

[fatletiss]

On two, I wish I'd seen the 80s, no VAR/PL hype bollocks and our best team of the modern era

On the first one then apologies if I misunderstood, I thought you said that 60% could be classed as a success.

I mean an improvement.

 

[Libby]

Whether it's a goal in football, or a wicket in cricket, I haven't found myself withholding a celebration just in case the technology later rules it out. I still naturally find myself celebrating as normal, and if the technology makes me look like an idiot later, well so be it.

Even in non-VAR days, it was never an automatic reaction of mine to check out the linesman flag before celebrating. Sure there might be times when I'm already looking in that direction, and happen to see the flag go up first which then prevents me from celebrating. But otherwise it's celebrate first, see the flag later.

Like you say, if anything it can sometimes add to the celebrating, rather than taking something away.

So it's not an argument with really holds much water with me.

Just because it doesn't apply to you it doesn't mean that it doesn't 'hold much water'. There's thousands who do feel like that so it's a bit silly to dismiss the idea as bollocks just because you don't feel the same.

Would be a bit like someone saying that because they won't personally be affected by Brexit then the idea that it might negatively impact some people doesn't hold much water.



Do you think people are lying to you?

 

[fatletiss]

Whether it's a goal in football, or a wicket in cricket, I haven't found myself withholding a celebration just in case the technology later rules it out. I still naturally find myself celebrating as normal, and if the technology makes me look like an idiot later, well so be it.

Even in non-VAR days, it was never an automatic reaction of mine to check out the linesman flag before celebrating. Sure there might be times when I'm already looking in that direction, and happen to see the flag go up first which then prevents me from celebrating. But otherwise it's celebrate first, see the flag later.

Like you say, if anything it can sometimes add to the celebrating, rather than taking something away.

So it's not an argument with really holds much water with me.

It might not hold water with you, but for me Libby has a point. It’s hardly a comparison to consider celebrating a goal only to realise that 10-20 seconds later you realise the flag has gone up, to that of waiting for 2-5 minutes with both teams lined back up for a restart

 

[Libby]

Latter for me too.



But with the major things correct

Tough, you're getting the former

 

[Saints_Alive]

It might not hold water with you, but for me Libby has a point. It’s hardly a comparison to consider celebrating a goal only to realise that 10-20 seconds later you realise the flag has gone up, to that of waiting for 2-5 minutes with both teams lined back up for a restart

Is it really taking 2-5 minutes to come to a decision?, most of the matches still appear to finishing roughly about the same time that they were before as far as I can tell.

 

[Libby]

It might not hold water with you, but for me Libby has a point. It’s hardly a comparison to consider celebrating a goal only to realise that 10-20 seconds later you realise the flag has gone up, to that of waiting for 2-5 minutes with both teams lined back up for a restart

Best example this season is probably Neves against United, absolute screamer from a corner routine and the place erupted only to have to stop for about two minutes while they checked to see if his armpit was offside.

The goal was obviously given but there's no doubt the Wolves fans behind the goal felt robbed of the moment.

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I know I'm extremely biased, though there is some aspects of it I'll happily debate, but nobody is ever going to convince me that that '2nd celebration' is same as that rush of adrenaline when the ball goes in the net.

Like you say in previous years it would be a matter of seconds and even then it's only a small percentage of goals.

The problem for me now is that a goal isn't a goal until it's had the var rubber stamp, I think that's the bit that I struggle with personally and can't get past.

 

[st_brendy]

It might not hold water with you, but for me Libby has a point. It’s hardly a comparison to consider celebrating a goal only to realise that 10-20 seconds later you realise the flag has gone up, to that of waiting for 2-5 minutes with both teams lined back up for a restart

I understand that 2-5 minutes is longer than 10-20 seconds. And I'm not saying that VAR is quick.

What I'm saying is that it doesn't hamper my celebrations. I still celebrate. If anything, those celebrations get cut shorter a lot quicker by the linesman's flag going up, than by realising the decision is being closely deliberated by VAR.

 

[VocalMinority]

With reference to your final paragraph, the reason it's selective is because I've never once said it won't get more right than wrong, so there's no point discussing/arguing a point I've always agreed with.

The reason I bring up the blatant ones not given is because that is supposedly the main reason it was brought in.

We weren't told it was coming it because it was essential to correct the offside that were fractionally on or off. We were told it was brought in to eliminate the complete howlers that the ref missed and/or got wrong.

People would say 'Yeah it might not get everything right but it will stop teams being blatantly robbed of a result via an awful decision.' but that's simply not happened.

We've already had a manager lose his job after being robbed from a howler and no doubt we'll see more situations like that because var won't prevent situations like that.

We obviously all have our opinions and some people think it's going well which is fine. But let's not re-write history and pretend it's doing exactly what people said it would in recent years.

That has happened to us, twice in 5 matches.

edit: wow there's been a lot of comments since then. Was the last on the page and didnt notice there was more or i would have left it

 

[Libby]

That has happened to us, twice in 5 matches.

So it's not a fairer game you really want then just things to be better for us?

I doubt City or Watford fans feel like that so far. This is the point, it's still a lottery.

 

[fatletiss]

I understand that 2-5 minutes is longer than 10-20 seconds. And I'm not saying that VAR is quick.

What I'm saying is that it doesn't hamper my celebrations. I still celebrate. If anything, those celebrations get cut shorter a lot quicker by the linesman's flag going up, than by realising the decision is being closely deliberated by VAR.

You referred to it as “holding no water” - suggesting no validity and then you gave comparison to a goal being disallowed normally. That’s the bit I disagree with and say Libby has a point that shouldn’t just be dismissed.

 

[VocalMinority]

So it's not a fairer game you really want then just things to be better for us?

I doubt City or Watford fans feel like that so far. This is the point, it's still a lottery.

No its the opposite, i am 0nly picking games we have all seen to be unbiased. its the best sample for statistical comparison unless you have seen all 50 games. the fact they have been in our favour is coincidental.

 

[Saints_Alive]

Best example this season is probably Neves against United, absolute screamer from a corner routine and the place erupted only to have to stop for about two minutes while they checked to see if his armpit was offside.

The goal was obviously given but there's no doubt the Wolves fans behind the goal felt robbed of the moment.

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I know I'm extremely biased, though there is some aspects of it I'll happily debate, but nobody is ever going to convince me that that '2nd celebration' is same as that rush of adrenaline when the ball goes in the net.

Like you say in previous years it would be a matter of seconds and even then it's only a small percentage of goals.

The problem for me now is that a goal isn't a goal until it's had the var rubber stamp, I think that's the bit that I struggle with personally and can't get past.

I understand that 2-5 minutes is longer than 10-20 seconds. And I'm not saying that VAR is quick.

What I'm saying is that it doesn't hamper my celebrations. I still celebrate. If anything, those celebrations get cut shorter a lot quicker by the linesman's flag going up, than by realising the decision is being closely deliberated by VAR.

I still get the rush of arenaline when we score and that was always cut short if the ref had a doubt and conferred with the lino. waiting a bit longer for a correct decision does not bother me but I understand if other fans feel differently.

 

[fatletiss]

Is it really taking 2-5 minutes to come to a decision?, most of the matches still appear to finishing roughly about the same time that they were before as far as I can tell.

It has done yes.

 

[Libby]

No its the opposite, i am 0nly picking games we have all seen to be unbiased. its the best sample for statistical comparison unless you have seen all 50 games.

You pointing out that it's worked for us, doesn't mean that it hasn't failed elsewhere.

 

[fatletiss]

I still get the rush of arenaline when we score and that was always cut short if the ref had a doubt and conferred with the lino. waiting a bit longer for a correct decision does not bother me but I understand if other fans feel differently.

How many times pre-var was there a moment or two to check? Not many. Now it is potentially every goal.

 

[Saints_Alive]

It has done yes.

I cannot believe that it will always be that way and i'm willing to give it a chance, but if they do not get the delays down then it will be an issue in the future.

 

[VocalMinority]

You pointing out that it's worked for us, doesn't mean that it hasn't failed elsewhere.

Actually its a far better indicator than the one you are using in picking the worse decisions of 50 games without having watched the whole of them all. once weve all watched all 38 for us this season, that will be the best sample to make that decision. its not about having worked for US as you keep misunderstanding, but in our games, or more precisely, the games where we have seen all the decisions be made.

 

[Saints_Alive]

How many times pre-var was there a moment or two to check? Not many. Now it is potentially every goal.

But i'm honestly not feeling the flow of a match being interupted too much. Yesterday's was a really good watch.

 

[st_brendy]

You referred to it as “holding no water” - suggesting no validity and then you gave comparison to a goal being disallowed normally. That’s the bit I disagree with and say Libby has a point that shouldn’t just be dismissed.

My apologies.

I was referring to Libby's line of "pure burst of joy and ecstasy as soon as the ball hits the back of the net". I still absolutely get that - VAR doesn't take that away from me. Yes it absolutely adds something different come 30 or 60 or 90 seconds later, but that immediate reaction as the ball hits the net is still absolutely the same. I can't get my own head around why that wouldn't be the case for others, but clearly it is the case and therefore not being able to understand is my own issue.