Off Topic The Politics Thread

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Should the UK remain a part of the EU or leave?

  • Stay in

    Votes: 56 47.9%
  • Get out

    Votes: 61 52.1%

  • Total voters
    117
  • Poll closed .
This is it in a nutshell. The difference of the past few days where there is positive leadership and a clear goal, none of the pathetic grovelling of a Remainer PM trying to please the MPs who would ultimately stop at nothing to thwart her at every step and ending up with a deal that was worse than staying in.

I've always thought the EU was a good idea that got way above itself, a free market that morphed into a monolith that wanted to control every facet of it's members 'freedom' to the point you were subservient. We'll be well rid of it before it destroys itself. Just look at those who were recently 'elected' without opposition but only just, failed German minister Ursula von der Leyen as President of the EU Commission, who was 'nominated' behind closed doors by the European Council without any opposition, a sidekick of Merkel and a rabid federalist. Also Charles Michel selected as the new President of the European Council without opposition, the Belgian is a close ally of Macron, and look how well he's doing in France, so once again there's a strong Franco/German grip on the top posts. It seems the majority of MEPs are furious with what has been foisted on them and point out they wouldn't accept this sort of outcome in their own countries, so why is it being allowed to happen?

Anyone who thinks this is the way forward must be deluded, Europe is headed for recession so there is no better time to jump the sinking ship...

I read an article on the Beeb the other day where some Kraut claimed that the EU was Germany’s ‘destiny’.

Read into that what you will, but every time I see Chancellor Merkel she looks more and more like the results of some hideous experiment conducted by Dr Strangelove, Blofeld and Dr Evil. No wonder she shakes.
 
This is it in a nutshell. The difference of the past few days where there is positive leadership and a clear goal, none of the pathetic grovelling of a Remainer PM trying to please the MPs who would ultimately stop at nothing to thwart her at every step and ending up with a deal that was worse than staying in.

I've always thought the EU was a good idea that got way above itself, a free market that morphed into a monolith that wanted to control every facet of it's members 'freedom' to the point you were subservient. We'll be well rid of it before it destroys itself. Just look at those who were recently 'elected' without opposition but only just, failed German minister Ursula von der Leyen as President of the EU Commission, who was 'nominated' behind closed doors by the European Council without any opposition, a sidekick of Merkel and a rabid federalist. Also Charles Michel selected as the new President of the European Council without opposition, the Belgian is a close ally of Macron, and look how well he's doing in France, so once again there's a strong Franco/German grip on the top posts. It seems the majority of MEPs are furious with what has been foisted on them and point out they wouldn't accept this sort of outcome in their own countries, so why is it being allowed to happen?

Anyone who thinks this is the way forward must be deluded, Europe is headed for recession so there is no better time to jump the sinking ship...

Great post, Sooper. Sums it up totally. I believe moderate Remainers are beginning to see this.
 
There’s a lot in there. In no particular order...

1, I’m not seeking to blame the EU if there are short-term acute economic difficulties for the UK. It is the UK that’s seeking to leave after all; not the EU expelling them. All I’m saying is that if part of the EU’s strategy is to inflict stark economic hardship on a leaving state in order to deter others from following suit, then shame on them.

2, Yes, in my opinion May’s exit plan was a better outcome than no deal, to the extent that I understood the minutiae of her proposal. I’m with the lovely Miss Caroline Flint, however, in that we must honour the outcome of the referendum and leave. The shame sits with the MPs of all liveries for forcing us down the no deal route in their pathetic and undemocratic attempts to reverse the (slim, but no less a) majority opinion of the electorate. I know the response to this from you, Oslo, Watford etc. so let’s not bother, eh?

3, Even with the prospect of lower tax revenues and a deficit to reduce a few years ago it was still the view of them in the red corner that we should spend our way out with infrastructure projects and the like. Now I’d imagine that policy doesn’t sit well with the current argument so is abandoned?

4, We have no idea whether there’d be an immediate downturn or not. There might be a honeymoon period of rising prosperity for all we know. If I was in government right now I’d be sucking up to the Yanks, Japs, Indians and (maybe the) Chinese etc. to create the right environment for their inward investment. I’d be prepared to offer tax incentives in return for jobs, which themselves will swell the tax coffers with PAYE, NIC and VAT as spending in the economy is always the key. How hard can it be when you’re Eton/Oxbridge educated and running a show that’s unencumbered by European red tape and protocol to drum up deals that deliver this? Of course, we’ll shape some deals well and some not so, but put an expiry date, caveats and parameters on such things and you’re away. Christ, I could do these and I was educated in a bucket of horse ****!

5, It wasn’t just Tory Brexitremists (good one!) that scuppered May’s deal. Corbyn’s Commissars have taken three years to declare where they think they are in the whole shooting match, and that was just a shameless ‘about turn’ to win votes back from the Nambies after recent electoral mailings. Very strange, seeing that the blue collar heartlands that used to pay their wages voted to leave. Further evidence, should any be needed, that they’ve abandoned these heartlands and are very much in the thrall of the Islington Champagne Socialist Brigade.

6, Back to ‘can do’. We all know that influential people talking doom & gloom becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. It’s a nice lazy way for political and economic commentators to appear to be authorities on their subjects. If there was more positivity about this we’d fare much better. Talk us down continuously on the telly and people get frightened, batten down the hatches and, sure as eggs is eggs, you get the worst possible outcome. Sadly, you can’t run two realities and fast forward to assess their respective outcomes, but just because one decision is less certain than the other doesn’t mean it’s outcome is likely to be worse.
Your 'honeymoon period' is based on turning the UK into a bargain basement economy which is simply trying to make itself attractive to foreign predatory capital - all of those 'nasty' EU laws regarding worker's rights and environmental protection can then be discarded. The UK. can become an off shore tax haven - comparative with the role of Singapore in Asia. Brexit really is becoming one of the biggest corporate Coup d'etats in history if that is your thinking. Does 'sucking up to the Yanks, Japs and Chinese' have anything to do with this 'sovereignty' which is broadcast by the Brexiteers as one of the main reasons for Brexit ? Does opening up your legs for the rest of the World to jump in really sound like sovereignty ?
 
I read an article on the Beeb the other day where some Kraut claimed that the EU was Germany’s ‘destiny’.

Read into that what you will, but every time I see Chancellor Merkel she looks more and more like the results of some hideous experiment conducted by Dr Strangelove, Blofeld and Dr Evil. No wonder she shakes.
If I were to use detremental words about Jews, Asians, Pakistanis, or blacks on here there would be an outcry - so why is it ok. about Germans ?
 
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I read an article on the Beeb the other day where some Kraut claimed that the EU was Germany’s ‘destiny’.

Read into that what you will, but every time I see Chancellor Merkel she looks more and more like the results of some hideous experiment conducted by Dr Strangelove, Blofeld and Dr Evil. No wonder she shakes.

:emoticon-0100-smile I quite like Mutti Merkel and obviously hope she's not suffering from anything serious. I'm also an admirer in many respects of post - WW2 Germany. But there's no doubt German elite have always seen one United States of Europe run from Berlin (with a rubber stamp office in Brussels) as their destiny. It's in their DNA, they can't help themselves. And most of Europe doesn't have the economic power to resist.

The Common Market was a great idea - it's all gone south since then.
 
Your 'honeymoon period' is based on turning the UK into a bargain basement economy which is simply trying to make itself attractive to foreign predatory capital - all of those 'nasty' EU laws regarding worker's rights and environmental protection can then be discarded. The UK. can become an off shore tax haven - comparative with the role of Singapore in Asia. Brexit really is becoming one of the biggest corporate Coup d'etats in history if that is your thinking. Does 'sucking up to the Yanks, Japs and Chinese' have anything to do with this 'sovereignty' which is broadcast by the Brexiteers as one of the main reasons for Brexit ? Does opening up your legs for the rest of the World to jump in really sound like sovereignty ?

Oh, yuk! (last sentence)
 
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Oh, yuk! (last sentence)
He used to write for Mills and Boon <whistle>
He has a point though - we could be in a position where we have no choice but to accept deals with US, China etc that are very one sided. Just have to wait and see I guess.
 
Your 'honeymoon period' is based on turning the UK into a bargain basement economy which is simply trying to make itself attractive to foreign predatory capital - all of those 'nasty' EU laws regarding worker's rights and environmental protection can then be discarded. The UK. can become an off shore tax haven - comparative with the role of Singapore in Asia. Brexit really is becoming one of the biggest corporate Coup d'etats in history if that is your thinking. Does 'sucking up to the Yanks, Japs and Chinese' have anything to do with this 'sovereignty' which is broadcast by the Brexiteers as one of the main reasons for Brexit ? Does opening up your legs for the rest of the World to jump in really sound like sovereignty ?

Typical left wing interpretation of perfectly reasonable language. You chaps always have to take our comments to the extreme and then get all waspish and spittle-flecked over what you’d like us to have said rather than what we actually said.
 
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If I were to use detremental words about Jews, Asians, Pakistanis, or blacks on here there would be an outcry - so why is it ok. about Germans ?

I knew someone would get hot under the collar over the use of the word Kraut. I won’t get upset if they call us Tommies; how about that? I couldn’t care less that some Frogs call us Rosbifs. It’s all ****.
 
Typical left wing interpretation of perfectly reasonable language. You chaps always have to take our comments to the stream and then get all waspish and spittle-flecked over what you’d like us to have said rather than what we actually said.
There is nothing unequivocal about 'sucking up to the Yanks, Japs and Chinese' - these are your words not mine, and have precious little to do with sovereignty.
 
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I knew someone would get hot under the collar over the use of the word Kraut. I won’t get upset if they call us Tommies; how about that? I couldn’t care less that some Frogs call us Rosbifs. It’s all ****.

They are only words that somehow the masses deem not acceptable. I got called a **** twice yesterday but then again I am one
 
He used to write for Mills and Boon <whistle>
He has a point though - we could be in a position where we have no choice but to accept deals with US, China etc that are very one sided. Just have to wait and see I guess.

Now that Boris is (I hope he is) determined to leave in October, with or without deal, I would be utterly amazed if the EU did not move from its intransigent position, so that there is a last-minute deal. There is absolutely nothing in a no-deal for the EU : -

- trade relations with an important customer (UK) are negatively affected

- the fragile Eurozone economy is rocked

- Germany could be pushed into recession or a deeper recession that it will already be in

- no agreement is made on £39bn so it will at the least be delayed and some will never be paid

- Ireland's economy will be affected particularly badly and could take years to recover

So far as the UK is concerned, our economy will suffer too, but we keep £39bn and we get Brexit done, so we can move on.

Clearly, we'll be in a transition stage. The US, China etc may take advantage, but they want deals too, so won't walk away if we stand up for ourselves.

All my money is on a last-minute deal with the EU. This is how they do business. Huge pressure relying on their size, and then negotiate "at the door of the court"
 
Typical left wing interpretation of perfectly reasonable language. You chaps always have to take our comments to the stream and then get all waspish and spittle-flecked over what you’d like us to have said rather than what we actually said.

I think Cologne's interpretation was on the money. It's why the Brexit fundamentalists actively want to leave without a deal, so that we can be 'free' to scrap whatever pesky workers rights, human rights, environmental protections or food hygiene regulations that they feel would hamper them in the quest to turn the UK into an unregulated tax haven.
 
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Now that Boris is (I hope he is) determined to leave in October, with or without deal, I would be utterly amazed if the EU did not move from its intransigent position, so that there is a last-minute deal. There is absolutely nothing in a no-deal for the EU : -

- trade relations with an important customer (UK) are negatively affected

- the fragile Eurozone economy is rocked

- Germany could be pushed into recession or a deeper recession that it will already be in

- no agreement is made on £39bn so it will at the least be delayed and some will never be paid

- Ireland's economy will be affected particularly badly and could take years to recover

So far as the UK is concerned, our economy will suffer too, but we keep £39bn and we get Brexit done, so we can move on.

Clearly, we'll be in a transition stage. The US, China etc may take advantage, but they want deals too, so won't walk away if we stand up for ourselves.

All my money is on a last-minute deal with the EU. This is how they do business. Huge pressure relying on their size, and then negotiate "at the door of the court"
The big issue there Goldie is time. There's no way they can renegotiate it by 31 October - so if it is going well and he needs another short extension to get it over the line will people accept that? I imagine most of the leave supporters on here probably would but it's a risky strategy for him.
 
:emoticon-0100-smile I quite like Mutti Merkel and obviously hope she's not suffering from anything serious. I'm also an admirer in many respects of post - WW2 Germany. But there's no doubt German elite have always seen one United States of Europe run from Berlin (with a rubber stamp office in Brussels) as their destiny. It's in their DNA, they can't help themselves. And most of Europe doesn't have the economic power to resist.

The Common Market was a great idea - it's all gone south since then.
Worth following up on this Goldie because I suspect that suspicion of German motives has a lot to do with Brexit. To suggest that European domination is in the German DNA is, presumably, based on what happened in the past - by the same token can I say that the quest for World domination is set in the British DNA because of the history of the empire ? If you use history in this way where do you stop ? Objectively Germany has a proportion of the members of the EU Parliament, based on its population - which could be outvoted by any 2 countries. They are under represented in both the EU Commission, and the EU negotiating team over Brexit. They constitute 22% of the population of the EU, and pay in 25% of the budget (not a great difference). So where do you get the idea that Germany wants to rule Europe - other than by reference to the actions of people who are mostly dead ? I agree that Germany has an export/import imbalance, and that this is not good for the EU (nor is it good for German spending power) - I also agree that Germany is dragging it's feet on Co2 reduction - but I fail to see how Germany is deliberately trying to dominate Europe. There is no sense of 'destiny' in this - the vast majority of Germans are only interested in their own living standards (pretty much the same as everyone else), and are relatively uninterested in what happens elsewhere. There is no 'German DNA' Goldie - we are not talking biology here.
 
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