Off Topic The Politics Thread
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Labour MPs in Leave seats fear electoral suicide
Oliver Wright, Henry Zeffman
June 20 2019, 12:01am, The Times
Jeremy Corbyn is weighing up the idea of backing remaining in the EULEON NEAL/GETTY IMAGES
Labour would back staying in the EU while allowing its Brexiteer MPs to campaign against the policy in a second referendum, under plans being considered by Jeremy Corbyn.
Yesterday the shadow cabinet backed a proposal to change the party’s Brexit policy and support a second referendum in all circumstances, but there were clashes between shadow ministers who wanted the party to back Remain and those who said that it could be electoral suicide in a Leave voting seat.
John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor, is understood to have been a key voice demanding that the party take an unambiguous stance. He said that the party’s present policy was “indecisive” and it needed to be “much clearer”.
But he is understood to have raised the same compromise…
Oliver Wright, Henry Zeffman
June 20 2019, 12:01am, The Times
You must log in or register to see images
Jeremy Corbyn is weighing up the idea of backing remaining in the EULEON NEAL/GETTY IMAGES
Labour would back staying in the EU while allowing its Brexiteer MPs to campaign against the policy in a second referendum, under plans being considered by Jeremy Corbyn.
Yesterday the shadow cabinet backed a proposal to change the party’s Brexit policy and support a second referendum in all circumstances, but there were clashes between shadow ministers who wanted the party to back Remain and those who said that it could be electoral suicide in a Leave voting seat.
John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor, is understood to have been a key voice demanding that the party take an unambiguous stance. He said that the party’s present policy was “indecisive” and it needed to be “much clearer”.
But he is understood to have raised the same compromise…
Are people in **** parts of the country really going to consider the ****ing Tories who they’ve hated for their entire lives and made a complete hash of their beloved Brexit or a party with no policies at all who only care about Brexit to represent them on everything else which actually does affect their quality of life like health and education?
Some people are easily brainwashed by free copies of the Sun newspaper.
The first eight words of your post are the most revealing.
Snide remark? Jesus, there are some touchy people on here. I didn't watch the debate, but was responding to your comment about Stewart performing badly. The poll that had him as the best performer was of the general public as opposed to Tory members. 'Normal' people
. I've added a smiley to indicate that I was being jovial. Is that better?Sigh......you really couldn’t call the Brexit Party by any way, shape or form ‘far-right’ Strolls......come on now mate, be sensible
Sigh again for effect
if you think that the term far right can only be used to describe out-and-out Nazis like Combat 18, then I suppose we do indeed have a different perspective. I would describe UKIP as being a far right party, and can see no reason that its offspring the Brexit Party, with Farage and Widdicombe at the helm and as witnessed by the rabble that they put up as candidates in the EU elections, should be viewed any differently. How would you describe Corbyn, McDonnell and McClusky? If they are far left, as 'Reds Under The Beds' Col and many others on here would say, then it's perfectly legitimate to describe Farage and Widdicombe as far right in my view. Is that sensible enough?
(thumbs up to indicate no hard feelings, just to be clear).
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Snide remark? Jesus, there are some touchy people on here. I didn't watch the debate, but was responding to your comment about Stewart performing badly. The poll that had him as the best performer was of the general public as opposed to Tory members. 'Normal' people
if you think that the term far right can only be used to describe out-and-out Nazis like Combat 18, then I suppose we do indeed have a different perspective. I would describe UKIP as being a far right party, and can see no reason that its offspring the Brexit Party, with Farage and Widdicombe at the helm and as witnessed by the rabble that they put up as candidates in the EU elections, should be viewed any differently.How would you describe Corbyn, McDonnell and McClusky? If they are far left, as 'Reds Under The Beds' Col and many others on here would say, then it's perfectly legitimate to describe Farage and Widdicombe as far right.in my view. Is that sensible enough?
Never any hard feelings with you Strolls
I know mate. 2019 and we still have towns like Rotherham and Stoke in such a supposedly developed nation.
Snide remark? Jesus, there are some touchy people on here. I didn't watch the debate, but was responding to your comment about Stewart performing badly. The poll that had him as the best performer was of the general public as opposed to Tory members. 'Normal' people
QUOTE]
Perhaps you should have watched it then. His 'performance' was poor, he looked uneasy, nervous didn't seem so sure of himself. When he said he would put forward May's deal for the 4th time he was done for.
With regard to the poll, with the Tories currently polling around 20% it would always favour the least right-wing candidate but this is for the leader of the Tory Party elected by Tories. On actual performance he was the worst of a pretty uninspiring bunch. Add that the BBC were clearly biased with questions and Maitliss was gunning for Boris quite pointedly and the whole show was a shambles.
As I said during the show they should have let Andrew Neil do each candidate in a one to one for 20 minutes, he'd have found them all out...
Sigh......you really couldn’t call the Brexit Party by any way, shape or form ‘far-right’ Strolls......come on now mate, be sensible
Sigh again for effect
In the weak and fluffy environment of British politics of course they are far right
Would it compare to the programming of the far right embedded inside your average blue sheep of course not ... Their minds are set to think of old imagery of the NF or even Nazis
They are far right in a woolly spectrum imo
Just newly disguised they have tapped into what the sheep will eat and rebranded to deceive imo
Any other generation that harbour racist views and there are millions of them in the U.K. love the new flavour and gulp this **** down. Thankfully that generation is dying out but the legacy still continues to seep through to the younger generations who carry the blame banner forward.
To them I say you are competing with a smarter non English world now and what older generations told you and passed on was a lie. The U.K. was great once but has been in full decline for decades and today the U.K. is a split between the stubborn and backward and the self obsessed confused new breeds
With any divide you will never get change until responsibility is accepted... how’s that going to happen when it’s always someone’s else fault?
The problem is that there is no accepted definition of 'far right', which is accepted by everyone. Taking Marine Le Pen's Front Nationale and catagorizing it as far right misses the point a little. She favours protectionism vs free trade, supports nationalization of industry, the separation of investment and retail banking, is opposed to privatization of public services, campaigns against speculation on international commodity markets, is opposed to globalization, has pledged to take France out of NATO and the US sphere of influence, is for the abolition of the WTO and the International monetary fund. She also wants a pivileged partnership with Russia and believes that Ukraine has been ''subjugated'' by the USA. Yet, after all that we place her on the far right ? If you accept that class war and race war can, very easily, run into each other (and they do in the works of both Marx and Engels) then you could even say that both the Nazis and the Fascists were born on the left. For me the expression ''far right'' means complete deregulation of the economy, complete neo liberalism in which capital accumulates in ever fewer hands and ''far left'' means the belief in a society based on both common ownership of the means of production, and where political power is organized on a 'bottom up'' principle. The issue of whether such a society is multi cultural, or mono cultural has nothing to do with the left-right spectrum.
You do spout some bollox when you get in that soapbox of yours, P
I agree but what is this post/forum all about... a load of sad old people venting out their frustrations without really understanding the addiction that goes with that?
Makes a great diversion from we all are on here a bunch of passionate QPR fans who have lost the will to live regarding our football team
My god others have seriously budgeted up our football club
Old sods like should know better but we are part of the problem either way .. same as when we get into our cars on the U.K. roads and all start moaning about the traffic ignorant to the fact that we are part of the problem
Tell you all we are all mad and self obsessed apart from me of course I am a very hooding prophet with an insight of the real truth
Bollocks
Agree there are no standards of left and right as each country will default to their own brainwashed version. Look on here posters believe the news stories each day like scriptures especially about France
I am certainly the worse on here at pigeon holing and forming stereotypes ... that is because my brain no longer works and I am now a old git
But I am working on that
Confused? Throw in nationalist v globalist, authoritarian v libertarian, individualist libertarian v collective libertarian, socially conservative (which includes many on the left) and socially liberal, populist v pragmatist. The old fashioned left-right spectrum is a spectacularly unhelpful shorthand, but I think when we talk about the ‘far’ right we are talking primarily large elements of nationalism, identity with place and notions of blood, whatever economic models are adopted. But it’s lazy vocabulary. The traditional far left, for me, requires the state, not the people, to own everything and is perversely hierarchical. One of the many things the extremes have in common is a demand of total unthinking loyalty to the Party and its ideology.
Is there such a thing as a 'traditional far left' - according to Marx, the role of the state is to oversee the transition to Communism and then to wither away - but when has any state, once in power, voluntarily withered away ? Real Communism can only come from below - from the Commune (hence the name) - and is the reverse of 'statism'. State ownership can only be justifiable if it is a prelude to real worker, or community, ownership - but, in most cases, it became an end in itself. I agree about the 'lazy vocabulary' - we dish out words such as 'Nazi' or 'Fascist' as a form of insult, without any real reference to the historical reality. Mussolini once said that 'race' didn't matter in the slightest - that Fascism was a cultural movement not a racial one, and that most people were mixed anyway. Mussolini's Fascists had both Jewish and Moslem sections, but how many people remember that now ?
What are people’s definitions of Far Right and Far Left?
Far Right might mean capitalism, small government, low taxation, tough on law & order... or the goose-stepping, jackbooted chaps in pickelhaubes.
Far Left might mean communism, large nanny state, high taxation, a relaxation of a number of controversial laws... or the goose-stepping, jackbooted chaps in bearskins.
Far Right might mean capitalism, small government, low taxation, tough on law & order... or the goose-stepping, jackbooted chaps in pickelhaubes.
Far Left might mean communism, large nanny state, high taxation, a relaxation of a number of controversial laws... or the goose-stepping, jackbooted chaps in bearskins.
The traditional far left is the one which we have actually experienced, which creates massive centralised bureaucracies, rather than Marx’s speculative end game. How many members of Momentum have read Das Kapital?
Mussolini said many contradictory things (I remember a discussion with Goldie on here where I posted a lot of racist stuff from Mussolini) but I don’t think it can be disputed that he was an authoritarian nationalist. Here’s what he said about the Serbs
“When dealing with such a race as Slavic - inferior and barbarian - we must not pursue the carrot, but the stick policy.... We should not be afraid of new victims.... The Italian border should run across the Brenner Pass, Monte Nevoso and the Dinaric Alps.... I would say we can easily sacrifice 500,000 barbaric Slavs for 50,000 Italians....”
— Benito Mussolini, speech held in Pula, 20 September 1920
The other thing the far right and left have in common is a love of uniforms. And marching.