Off Topic The Politics Thread

[Sooperhoop]

F*ck knows how much the police bill will be for all the protests this week. Police all over the place particularly the motorcycle cops, four went past me in Battersea and two of the bikes had 'Heddlu' on the front, so they've been sent from Wales. No doubt the usual ragtag bunch of anarchists will join in the fun at some stage. So many roads closed around the centre of London I've decided to pack up early before the traffic gets really silly...

 

[Willhoops]

F*ck knows how much the police bill will be for all the protests this week. Police all over the place particularly the motorcycle cops, four went past me in Battersea and two of the bikes had 'Heddlu' on the front, so they've been sent from Wales. No doubt the usual ragtag bunch of anarchists will join in the fun at some stage. So many roads closed around the centre of London I've decided to pack up early before the traffic gets really silly...

A drop in the ocean compared to what it's costing to have him here, as per the 'activists' are being good as gold so far.

 

[Uber_Hoop]

Very true re the French history we tasted nothing like the suffering imo
Mr Trump imo seems to be doing a good job for his country About time we looked at ourselves with the same source passion ... not worried about his views at all they don’t affect me and any silly sod that takes time out to join in yet another blame deflection is weak imo

Remember we come from a land that had Margo Thatcher running it at one time then that weasel Blair

We have no right to say anything imo about anyone else ... but we will it’s everyone else’s fault

Maybe more for the Review Thread, but...

Very fascinating documentary series on Thatcher running on the Beeb at the moment. I have to say that Auntie is doing a commendable job on it, thus far avoiding left wing bias altogether. Even Kinnock’s contribution so far is respectful and balanced.

As someone below voting age when she was ascending to power, the most striking thing for me is just how snobby many members of the Tory Party were towards her when she became leader. Heseltine, whom I’d always taken to be a bitter old tart because of Westland and thereafter was extremely condescending as one of the up-themselves Etonians from the very start.

It seems apparent that much of the antipathy simply was the result of a woman from a more humble background proving herself stronger and more capable than most of the silver spoon brigade.

Of course, many of the contributors to the series were fans, such as her private secretaries and the like, but the tales of her compassion for others, such as towards the serviceman lost during the Falklands War and their families, was also interesting to me.

I know she was divisive and history has shown that there are a number of adverse consequences to her policies felt even today, but how I’d love somebody of her character and resolve in the Conservative Party today.

The Tories, Labour and Namby Pambies are each unelectable today in my opinion. I don’t see anybody across the political spectrum with any new ideas or interesting policies that would re-unite the country.

Footnote: whilst the 1980s don’t seem that long ago in my mind it is also evident from the series’ footage that we were very much a different people then. We looked different, seemed far more patriotic and respectful, even allowing for the violent reactions in terms of the riots and miners’ strike episodes.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

It's an interesting feature of Corbyn's character that when confronted by anyone with whom he disagrees or who poses a potential problem, his reaction is NOT to engage. This applies to members of his own party, individuals who allege antisemitism in the Labour Party, Chukka, Theresa May on the EU, Trump and his latest visit. The list of those Corbyn runs from is endless

 

[Uber_Hoop]

While the doubtless thousands of people who will be protesting against Trump with their repeat joke balloon have a perfect right to spend their time like this, and Trump as an individual deserves no respect, I would be fascinated to know what the protesters think about the D Day commemorations as well. Especially the young ones.

The BBC news has been going big on the 75th anniversary. Interviews with French people who were around at the time last night, which were really interesting. Lots of controversy about the huge numbers of French civilians killed during the invasion, 20,000 in Caen alone. Though one brilliant lady, a former member of the resistance, was pretty scathing about those who criticise the allies, saying words to the effect of ‘who else was going to save us? We were incapable of liberating ourselves. Am I supposed to demand an apology from the 10,000 Americans in the war cemetery down the road?’.

Sorry, Stan, I'd missed the significance of the highlighted point (above) when I first read your response. I sincerely hope that the commemorations on Southsea Common aren't overshadowed by those wishing to protest against Trump. Mind you, I did see a call for people to attend wearing sombreros, which was mildly amusing, but inappropriate.

I think our generation may well be the last with a direct connection with those that lived through WWII. I was brought up playing with Action Man, making Airfix Messerschmitts and watching Hannibal Brooks, The Great Escape and Where Eagles Dare. My kids were more into Sci-Fi, superheroes and GTA. Sad, really. We had fathers, uncles and grandfathers that served in one or other world war - mothers, aunts and grannies too, of course - whereas our kids only have student activists and 1970s football hooligans to take their steer from.

 

[QPR Oslo]

Maybe more for the Review Thread, but...

Very fascinating documentary series on Thatcher running on the Beeb at the moment. I have to say that Auntie is doing a commendable job on it, thus far avoiding left wing bias altogether. Even Kinnock’s contribution so far is respectful and balanced.

As someone below voting age when she was ascending to power, the most striking thing for me is just how snobby many members of the Tory Party were towards her when she became leader. Heseltine, whom I’d always taken to be a bitter old tart because of Westland and thereafter was extremely condescending as one of the up-themselves Etonians from the very start.

It seems apparent that much of the antipathy simply was the result of a woman from a more humble background proving herself stronger and more capable than most of the silver spoon brigade.

Of course, many of the contributors to the series were fans, such as her private secretaries and the like, but the tales of her compassion for others, such as towards the serviceman lost during the Falklands War and their families, was also interesting to me.

I know she was divisive and history has shown that there are a number of adverse consequences to her policies felt even today, but how I’d love somebody of her character and resolve in the Conservative Party today.

The Tories, Labour and Namby Pambies are each unelectable today in my opinion. I don’t see anybody across the political spectrum with any new ideas or interesting policies that would re-unite the country.

Footnote: whilst the 1980s don’t seem that long ago in my mind it is also evident from the series’ footage that we were very much a different people then. We looked different, seemed far more patriotic and respectful, even allowing for the violent reactions in terms of the riots and miners’ strike episodes.

Thatcher was divisive all right. One reason I left the UK.

 

[Sooperhoop]

Maybe more for the Review Thread, but...

Very fascinating documentary series on Thatcher running on the Beeb at the moment. I have to say that Auntie is doing a commendable job on it, thus far avoiding left wing bias altogether. Even Kinnock’s contribution so far is respectful and balanced.

As someone below voting age when she was ascending to power, the most striking thing for me is just how snobby many members of the Tory Party were towards her when she became leader. Heseltine, whom I’d always taken to be a bitter old tart because of Westland and thereafter was extremely condescending as one of the up-themselves Etonians from the very start.

It seems apparent that much of the antipathy simply was the result of a woman from a more humble background proving herself stronger and more capable than most of the silver spoon brigade.

Of course, many of the contributors to the series were fans, such as her private secretaries and the like, but the tales of her compassion for others, such as towards the serviceman lost during the Falklands War and their families, was also interesting to me.

I know she was divisive and history has shown that there are a number of adverse consequences to her policies felt even today, but how I’d love somebody of her character and resolve in the Conservative Party today.

The Tories, Labour and Namby Pambies are each unelectable today in my opinion. I don’t see anybody across the political spectrum with any new ideas or interesting policies that would re-unite the country.

Footnote: whilst the 1980s don’t seem that long ago in my mind it is also evident from the series’ footage that we were very much a different people then. We looked different, seemed far more patriotic and respectful, even allowing for the violent reactions in terms of the riots and miners’ strike episodes.

I haven't seen this yet so I'll comment from what I remember at the time. Thatcher in her first two years as PM drove us into a recession that really cut deep in the North and Midlands, the traditional industrial areas. Her popularity was at rock-bottom and she was trailing in the polls to a Michael Foot led Labour Party. She then had a stroke of luck when Galtieri invaded the Falklands.

From that she rode the popularity of winning that war and an upturn in the economy allied to hopeless leadership from Foot gave her a massive win in 83. She then took on Scargill and the miners and the brutality of that year long strike really divided the country. Add to that the poll tax and various other confrontations and she seemed to revel in her 'tough' attitude. I feel it was very much her having to show herself as being tougher than the male members of her cabinet, hence that famous Spitting Image scene of her ordering a meal and when asked 'what about the vegetables?' the reply was 'they'll have the same'

I think looking back she went too far too often to show her 'strength' and it was that which led to her downfall. It was different times and yes, the country was different then in that people did have more respect for law and order and with the PC brigade in it's infancy (mainly at the GLC) not every facet of every thing politicians uttered or did was subject to the forensic examination of social media and 24 hour news. Today everything is overkill...

 

[Steelmonkey]

Maybe more for the Review Thread, but...

Very fascinating documentary series on Thatcher running on the Beeb at the moment. I have to say that Auntie is doing a commendable job on it, thus far avoiding left wing bias altogether. Even Kinnock’s contribution so far is respectful and balanced.

As someone below voting age when she was ascending to power, the most striking thing for me is just how snobby many members of the Tory Party were towards her when she became leader. Heseltine, whom I’d always taken to be a bitter old tart because of Westland and thereafter was extremely condescending as one of the up-themselves Etonians from the very start.

It seems apparent that much of the antipathy simply was the result of a woman from a more humble background proving herself stronger and more capable than most of the silver spoon brigade.

Of course, many of the contributors to the series were fans, such as her private secretaries and the like, but the tales of her compassion for others, such as towards the serviceman lost during the Falklands War and their families, was also interesting to me.

I know she was divisive and history has shown that there are a number of adverse consequences to her policies felt even today, but how I’d love somebody of her character and resolve in the Conservative Party today.

The Tories, Labour and Namby Pambies are each unelectable today in my opinion. I don’t see anybody across the political spectrum with any new ideas or interesting policies that would re-unite the country.

Footnote: whilst the 1980s don’t seem that long ago in my mind it is also evident from the series’ footage that we were very much a different people then. We looked different, seemed far more patriotic and respectful, even allowing for the violent reactions in terms of the riots and miners’ strike episodes.

Word of advice - if you're ever in Scotland don't mention her name, she is seen as the Devil incarnate up here! Destroyed countless communities that haven't recovered to this day, especially the mining and steel towns, and the shipyards on the Clyde too.

 

[sb_73]

Sorry, Stan, I'd missed the significance of the highlighted point (above) when I first read your response. I sincerely hope that the commemorations on Southsea Common aren't overshadowed by those wishing to protest against Trump. Mind you, I did see a call for people to attend wearing sombreros, which was mildly amusing, but inappropriate.

I think our generation may well be the last with a direct connection with those that lived through WWII. I was brought up playing with Action Man, making Airfix Messerschmitts and watching Hannibal Brooks, The Great Escape and Where Eagles Dare. My kids were more into Sci-Fi, superheroes and GTA. Sad, really. We had fathers, uncles and grandfathers that served in one or other world war - mothers, aunts and grannies too, of course - whereas our kids only have student activists and 1970s football hooligans to take their steer from.

The fact that our kids don’t have military heroism to relate to is a positive achievement of our generation and the one before Ubes, and I am personally very grateful for it. Of course we have ****ed a lot of other things up, which may be equally to blame in terms of the mystifying habits and attitudes of youngsters. After all we have contributed hugely to creating a world where the immediate fulfilment your own desires is encouraged as the true definition of ‘freedom’, and finding someone to blame if you fail to be happy an acceptable response. Even if freedom in this context is choosing which smartphone to play with.

I think the 1918 commemorations last year were very well done and respected from all age groups. Hopefully even if only a minority of kids make the effort to learn about what D Day actually was it will keep an understanding of duty and sacrifice in play.

Having said all that it doesn’t take much effort to find ordinary people, even kids, doing good, kind and selfless things every day. It just doesn’t hit the media. Hans Rosling’s Factfulness is a good antidote to the gloom too.

 

[sb_73]

Maybe more for the Review Thread, but...

Very fascinating documentary series on Thatcher running on the Beeb at the moment. I have to say that Auntie is doing a commendable job on it, thus far avoiding left wing bias altogether. Even Kinnock’s contribution so far is respectful and balanced.

As someone below voting age when she was ascending to power, the most striking thing for me is just how snobby many members of the Tory Party were towards her when she became leader. Heseltine, whom I’d always taken to be a bitter old tart because of Westland and thereafter was extremely condescending as one of the up-themselves Etonians from the very start.

It seems apparent that much of the antipathy simply was the result of a woman from a more humble background proving herself stronger and more capable than most of the silver spoon brigade.

Of course, many of the contributors to the series were fans, such as her private secretaries and the like, but the tales of her compassion for others, such as towards the serviceman lost during the Falklands War and their families, was also interesting to me.

I know she was divisive and history has shown that there are a number of adverse consequences to her policies felt even today, but how I’d love somebody of her character and resolve in the Conservative Party today.

The Tories, Labour and Namby Pambies are each unelectable today in my opinion. I don’t see anybody across the political spectrum with any new ideas or interesting policies that would re-unite the country.

Footnote: whilst the 1980s don’t seem that long ago in my mind it is also evident from the series’ footage that we were very much a different people then. We looked different, seemed far more patriotic and respectful, even allowing for the violent reactions in terms of the riots and miners’ strike episodes.

It’s an interesting debate, how much history is shaped by individuals and how much it is driven by social and economic trends. No definitive answer I suspect (like the age old nature vs nuture/genes vs environment question, where the answer is clearly ‘both’).

Thatcher and Reagan were obviously powerful individuals who made huge and far reaching decisions. But they were also a reflection of their times and the dominant policy trends of the day - monetarism, self help, individualism etc which were in turn replaced by the odd ‘third way’ stuff of Blair and Clinton. We probably need to wait a few years before identifying what the current shower are driven by. Thatcher was a huge character, but I’m pretty confident that had she not existed someone else would have been pursuing pretty similar policies.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

I haven't seen this yet so I'll comment from what I remember at the time. Thatcher in her first two years as PM drove us into a recession that really cut deep in the North and Midlands, the traditional industrial areas. Her popularity was at rock-bottom and she was trailing in the polls to a Michael Foot led Labour Party. She then had a stroke of luck when Galtieri invaded the Falklands.

From that she rode the popularity of winning that war and an upturn in the economy allied to hopeless leadership from Foot gave her a massive win in 83. She then took on Scargill and the miners and the brutality of that year long strike really divided the country. Add to that the poll tax and various other confrontations and she seemed to revel in her 'tough' attitude. I feel it was very much her having to show herself as being tougher than the male members of her cabinet, hence that famous Spitting Image scene of her ordering a meal and when asked 'what about the vegetables?' the reply was 'they'll have the same'

I think looking back she went too far too often to show her 'strength' and it was that which led to her downfall. It was different times and yes, the country was different then in that people did have more respect for law and order and with the PC brigade in it's infancy (mainly at the GLC) not every facet of every thing politicians uttered or did was subject to the forensic examination of social media and 24 hour news. Today everything is overkill...

Her role in reducing militant trade unionism, that had dragged the country down in the 1970's, cannot be overstated. This was something Blair acknowledged later, and took the benefit from, during his period of premiership. We still benefit from that now, so do workers and, ironically, so do trade unions since most act more responsibly now

 

[Uber_Hoop]

It’s an interesting debate, how much history is shaped by individuals and how much it is driven by social and economic trends. No definitive answer I suspect (like the age old nature vs nuture/genes vs environment question, where the answer is clearly ‘both’).

Thatcher and Reagan were obviously powerful individuals who made huge and far reaching decisions. But they were also a reflection of their times and the dominant policy trends of the day - monetarism, self help, individualism etc which were in turn replaced by the odd ‘third way’ stuff of Blair and Clinton. We probably need to wait a few years before identifying what the current shower are driven by. Thatcher was a huge character, but I’m pretty confident that had she not existed someone else would have been pursuing pretty similar policies.

That old cliché that governments lose elections rather than oppositions winning them seems true to me. The bleakness of the Wilson and Callaghan Labour administrations of the 1970s was, I believe, a massive contributor to waving in the radical policies that Thatcher championed. As Soops says above, the more powerful she needed to portray herself, the more she contributed to her own downfall. The electorate grew angry with the corruption of Major's government, thus waving in 10-years of the Blair Creature, with that bigoted tosser Brown himself being a factor in the rise of that Cameron-the-****.

My fear is that bullshit of May and whomsoever has the misfortune of succeeding her will be a huge factor in delivering a Corbyn government, although I suspect the majority of the electorate is cottoning on to the uselessness of all these arseholes. It's that very uselessness, from Blair through Cameron to the latest collection of impotents that gives us Nigel Farage or, God forbid, the bloody Namby-Pambies in some position of authority.

It's a ****, innit like?

 

[Stroller]

Her role in reducing militant trade unionism, that had dragged the country down in the 1970's, cannot be overstated. This was something Blair acknowledged later, and took the benefit from, during his period of premiership. We still benefit from that now, so do workers and, ironically, so do trade unions since most act more responsibly now

Union members have benefited from our being in the EU though, with all the rights and protections that go with our membership. They have also benefited from the minimum wage, introduced under Blair. Much less need for industrial action now.

Of course, if Liam Fox gets the 'deregulation of the Labour market' that he sees as being a benefit of Brexit, that could change.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

Union members have benefited from our being in the EU though, with all the rights and protections that go with our membership. They have also benefited from the minimum wage, introduced under Blair. Much less need for industrial action now.

Of course, if Liam Fox gets the 'deregulation of the Labour market' that he sees as being a benefit of Brexit, that could change.

The EU is a two edged sword. Workers's rights have to be balanced against cheap labour coming in under freedom of movement laws and undercutting the market and British workers generally. Of course, employers love it, which is why the CBI is so unequivocal about staying in. As the EU looks east for new member countries, this issue will not go away. It will for the UK when we leave.

 

[sb_73]

Anyone following this Woodford Investments potential collapse and closure to investors putting money in or taking it out? It’s inherently arcane and boring, but it’s a shame that so many pension funds, including local authority ones, have money in it. As does Hargreaves Lansdown which invests money on behalf of lots of people, including lots of retired small investors. Just heard their spokeswoman on the radio essentially saying that if these people (who by definition are not stock market experts and trust the advice given) follow her company’s advice, it’s their own lookout. But in much more weasly words of course.

Here’s the thing. The stock market, investment funds etc are bets. Think of them in exactly the same terms as you would a casino or the horses. Perhaps the market is a bit more like poker, where you can kid yourself some skill is involved. But it’s a gamble, and in the case of the markets, a giant confidence trick, a Ponzi scam based on the fiction that everything will always go up.

Good luck.

 

[YorkshireHoopster]

Word of advice - if you're ever in Scotland don't mention her name, she is seen as the Devil incarnate up here! Destroyed countless communities that haven't recovered to this day, especially the mining and steel towns, and the shipyards on the Clyde too.

Same in the North East

 

[BobbyD]

Anyone following this Woodford Investments potential collapse and closure to investors putting money in or taking it out? It’s inherently arcane and boring, but it’s a shame that so many pension funds, including local authority ones, have money in it. As does Hargreaves Lansdown which invests money on behalf of lots of people, including lots of retired small investors. Just heard their spokeswoman on the radio essentially saying that if these people (who by definition are not stock market experts and trust the advice given) follow her company’s advice, it’s their own lookout. But in much more weasly words of course.

Here’s the thing. The stock market, investment funds etc are bets. Think of them in exactly the same terms as you would a casino or the horses. Perhaps the market is a bit more like poker, where you can kid yourself some skill is involved. But it’s a gamble, and in the case of the markets, a giant confidence trick, a Ponzi scam based on the fiction that everything will always go up.

Good luck.

Should i feel bad for people who invest money into firms? I'm not sure i do. At the end of the day you are gambling as you say.

 

[sb_73]

Should i feel bad for people who invest money into firms? I'm not sure i do. At the end of the day you are gambling as you say.

I feel sorry for them, or small investors at least, because they have been conned into believing that it’s ‘investing’ not gambling. No matter what the small print says.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

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[Sooperhoop]

I think she's pretty safe on that one, he couldn't possibly be that desperate...

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