Off Topic Politics Thread

[ImpSaint]

No. https://fullfact.org/europe/does-ttip-mean-privatisation-nhs/

Whereas if we leave the EU we become a negotiating minnow. So the US will be able to demand whatever they desire in return for access to their markets. Even more so if we leave in the manner the ERG ****maggots want, with our imposing no tariffs on anything (i.e. with no leverage left at all bar, say, giving away access to things like the NHS).

Vin

Even your article states that the EU intention on this is based on trust. Corbyn and the Lib Dems were very vocal about opposing TTIP due to its NHS risk. Unite the union even sought legal advice which is included in your fullfact article:

Campaigners also point to legal advice commissioned by Unite, which concludes that “TTIP poses a real and serious risk to future [government] decision-making in respect of the NHS”.

The lawyers argue that TTIP would provide more opportunities for a company to sue over its assets being privatised than under existing laws, and raise the costs of future NHS nationalisation.

TTIP was in the end vetoed by National governments (as it stands) and seeing as you all think the Tories want to privatise the NHS then it should be worrying that the Tories did not veto it. In fact they were very supportive of it!!!

 

[ImpSaint]

I thought that we would be more vulnerable to losing the NHS, under WTO terms and trade deals with the US, which was why I queried the original point.

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This assumes that our politicians will sign an agreement that does so. The reality is that Cameron's Tories (remainers) wanted TTIP to pass. At least on WTO we would be the ones doing the negotiating with the US and anything like this would be much more out in the open rather than being discussed in Brussels with our politicians just saying "it ain't so."

 

[Onionman]

Even your article states that the EU intention on this is based on trust. Corbyn and the Lib Dems were very vocal about opposing TTIP due to its NHS risk. Unite the union even sought legal advice which is included in your fullfact article:

Campaigners also point to legal advice commissioned by Unite, which concludes that “TTIP poses a real and serious risk to future [government] decision-making in respect of the NHS”.

The lawyers argue that TTIP would provide more opportunities for a company to sue over its assets being privatised than under existing laws, and raise the costs of future NHS nationalisation.

TTIP was in the end vetoed by National governments (as it stands) and seeing as you all think the Tories want to privatise the NHS then it should be worrying that the Tories did not veto it. In fact they were very supportive of it!!!

And, back in the real world, from that article: "TTIP will probably have to be ratified by all member countries, as well as by the EU. The European Commission has said that “there will most likely be a number of elements that will require ratification by national parliaments”, and the government agrees.

That would mean that British ministers would in theory be able to veto TTIP, and MPs would be able to delay it."

Only you could spin "The Tories failed to use their power in the EU to oppose the parts of a trade deal whereby access to the NHS is given to US companies" as something that could be cured by having the Tories entirely in charge of it when we have no power to resist. Spin King.

Vin

 

[San Tejón]

Even your article states that the EU intention on this is based on trust. Corbyn and the Lib Dems were very vocal about opposing TTIP due to its NHS risk. Unite the union even sought legal advice which is included in your fullfact article:

Campaigners also point to legal advice commissioned by Unite, which concludes that “TTIP poses a real and serious risk to future [government] decision-making in respect of the NHS”.

The lawyers argue that TTIP would provide more opportunities for a company to sue over its assets being privatised than under existing laws, and raise the costs of future NHS nationalisation.

TTIP was in the end vetoed by National governments (as it stands) and seeing as you all think the Tories want to privatise the NHS then it should be worrying that the Tories did not veto it. In fact they were very supportive of it!!!

Just taking your last paragraph. Do you not think that the Tories want to privatise the NHS? Only asking because of your “You all think the Tories want to privatise the NHS”.
I have long thought that the Tories have wanted to privatise the NHS. When I first mentioned my concerns on here, I was shot down by a few, who suggested that it wouldn’t happen because the Tories would lose too much support.
When I re-visited my concerns, on here, not that long ago, I asked those that had disagreed with my original post, if they still felt I was wrong.
There were no replies, so I guess they either didn’t see the post, or maybe they had changed their views.

 

[Onionman]

As a spin-off: EU sceptics have been brainwashed to forget that the EU is democratic. You know, the EU where we have vetoes and votes plus we (used to) have political capital to sway decisions. That's why our pals in the ERG come up with lies like our being "Forced into the EU Army" or "Forced into the Euro" or "Forced to take refugees".

I'd be interested (I've asked the question dozens of times of Brexit supporters) to find a case where a policy had been imposed on the UK against our wishes.

Vin

 

[VocalMinority]

Even your article states that the EU intention on this is based on trust. Corbyn and the Lib Dems were very vocal about opposing TTIP due to its NHS risk. Unite the union even sought legal advice which is included in your fullfact article:

Campaigners also point to legal advice commissioned by Unite, which concludes that “TTIP poses a real and serious risk to future [government] decision-making in respect of the NHS”.

The lawyers argue that TTIP would provide more opportunities for a company to sue over its assets being privatised than under existing laws, and raise the costs of future NHS nationalisation.

TTIP was in the end vetoed by National governments (as it stands) and seeing as you all think the Tories want to privatise the NHS then it should be worrying that the Tories did not veto it. In fact they were very supportive of it!!!

Actually it was based on law. The artical meant that since the average layman can't understand complicated legal text they won't know whether exemptions such as for :"Services or activities which are performed neither on a commercial basis nor in competition with one or more economic operators" (quoted from the legal document)
Would actually fully protect the NHS. So it comes down to who's interpretation you believe.


Either way TTIP never went through so one way or the other the EU kept its word.

 

[San Tejón]

This could be interesting. Will justice be served?

He said: “I believe that when politicians lie democracy dies. If a company director lies to shareholders about financial matters they can be prosecuted. If a self employed person lies to HMRC about their spending or income they can be prosecuted. If a member of the public lies to the police about an ongoing investigation they can be prosecuted. This is because society and public trust cannot function based upon false information. So, why shouldn't a politician be prosecuted for abusing public trust by lying about public spending figures?”

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[ImpSaint]

And, back in the real world, from that article: "TTIP will probably have to be ratified by all member countries, as well as by the EU. The European Commission has said that “there will most likely be a number of elements that will require ratification by national parliaments”, and the government agrees.

That would mean that British ministers would in theory be able to veto TTIP, and MPs would be able to delay it."

Only you could spin "The Tories failed to use their power in the EU to oppose the parts of a trade deal whereby access to the NHS is given to US companies" as something that could be cured by having the Tories entirely in charge of it when we have no power to resist. Spin King.

Vin

Ignoring the facts that "British ministers" did not veto it, they supported it.......with a majority at the time, and MPs were unable to delay it (if it had been passed) because Cameron had a majority.

The Tories didn't fail to use their power to oppose parts of it. They (Cameron's Tories) used their power to support the deal.

Your "spin" argument is nonsensical. It was the Tory-lites / Centrists / globalists that are fully supportive of this. The same ones that are mad for the EU. The same ones that mirror Blair. The same ones that mirror Macron. It is the centrists that are the danger in all of this.

 

[ImpSaint]

Just to add a little further (and a little correction r.e. LibDems.)

When TTIP was in process the Greens were very heavily against it and stated on their site:

TTIP would grant corporations the power to sue governments (2), lock-in the privatisation of public services including the NHS, and undo regulations that protect workers, the environment and food safety and standards (3).

Enough of those ill informed Greens, on to Labour. Well little need to research that one because Corbyn was saying he wanted to kill TTIP during the referendum campaign whenever it was brought up.

Which leads me to the LibDems who I thought had been pushing the NHS narrative but it seems their neo-liberal(centrist in modern PR terms) stance over-ruled their lefty stance and they were fully behind it alongside Cameron.

So the ones that are against TTIP are:
Eurosceptic Tory MPs (apparently extremists)
Green Party (apparently lovely nice people)
and Labour post Milliband (apprently the kids love them.)

Those that were for it:
LibDems (only sensible folks around)
Cameron's Blairites (the nice version of the Tories)
and the Blairites in Labour (lovely people.)

 

[VocalMinority]

Just to add a little further (and a little correction r.e. LibDems.)

When TTIP was in process the Greens were very heavily against it and stated on their site:

TTIP would grant corporations the power to sue governments (2), lock-in the privatisation of public services including the NHS, and undo regulations that protect workers, the environment and food safety and standards (3).

Enough of those ill informed Greens, on to Labour. Well little need to research that one because Corbyn was saying he wanted to kill TTIP during the referendum campaign whenever it was brought up.

Which leads me to the LibDems who I thought had been pushing the NHS narrative but it seems their neo-liberal(centrist in modern PR terms) stance over-ruled their lefty stance and they were fully behind it alongside Cameron.

So the ones that are against TTIP are:
Eurosceptic Tory MPs (apparently extremists)
Green Party (apparently lovely nice people)
and Labour post Milliband (apprently the kids love them.)

Those that were for it:
LibDems (only sensible folks around)
Cameron's Blairites (the nice version of the Tories)
and the Blairites in Labour (lovely people.)

Free trade is a core liberal ideal, its the main way they differ from socialists who are about protectionism. Economically liberals are right wing.

 

[ImpSaint]

Free trade is a core liberal ideal, its the main way they differ from socialists who are about protectionism. Economically liberals are right wing.

there is a big difference between "liberals" and "centrists" who are full on big Corp fanatics.

Obama was pro -TTIp as well. Not sure where Trump stands but no doubt he would probs say he is against it because "we're gonna do a great deal, a better deal Brah."

My point was that the ones against TTIP were Corbynites (far left,) ERG (actual right) and Greens (nearly far left.)
Those for TTIP were Cameronites (Centrist,) Blairites (Centrist), Lib Dems (Centrist.)

 

[VocalMinority]

there is a big difference between "liberals" and "centrists" who are full on big Corp fanatics.

Obama was pro -TTIp as well. Not sure where Trump stands but no doubt he would probs say he is against it because "we're gonna do a great deal, a better deal Brah."

My point was that the ones against TTIP were Corbynites (far left,) ERG (actual right) and Greens (nearly far left.)
Those for TTIP were Cameronites (Centrist,) Blairites (Centrist), Lib Dems (Centrist.)

Trump was the one who binned TTIP so pretty clear where he stood despite him being a big corp fanatic... your list is actually a comparison of Authoritarians(socialists and nationalists) vs Liberals who are pro Free Trade.

 

[Archers Road]

Should I remind people of the stance of all the main parties before the referendum? They all clearly wanted to remain!!!! No doubt all had some differing members. The people decided other wise. Which went against what the main parties wanted. That is the dilemma that all parties have to deal with. The fact that the EU has not made it easy is understandable and predictable. Because if the Brits exit........trust me others will too!!

Sorry, can you tell me what the EU has done to make it difficult for the UK to leave?

And who do you think these "others" wanting to leave will be?

 

[ImpSaint]

Trump was the one who binned TTIP so pretty clear where he stood despite him being a big corp fanatic... your list is actually a comparison of Authoritarians(socialists and nationalists) vs Liberals who are pro Free Trade.

"Economic" liberals who are pro monopolies and corporate bullying...........I would agree with.

 

[VocalMinority]

"Economic" liberals who are pro monopolies and corporate bullying...........I would agree with.

The entire reason the NHS was at threat was because of anti monopoly rules within TTIP. The NHS itself is a state funded monopoly so would be hit by the rules without exemptions for non commercial areas.

 

[fatletiss]

Sorry, can you tell me what the EU has done to make it difficult for the UK to leave?

And who do you think these "others" wanting to leave will be?

Straight banana lovers

 

[Beddy]

Sorry, can you tell me what the EU has done to make it difficult for the UK to leave?

And who do you think these "others" wanting to leave will be?

It's been mentioned in Austria, Denmark and holland to name a few. How have they been difficult?..........We know surely that the UK not trading with them is going to put a lot of their workers out of a job just as it will us .........yet they have not been forthcoming with many ideas as to ideas how things could work. Germany seems to be the main one complaining about the EU's stance on our leaving without agreement.

 

[ChilcoSaint]

It's been mentioned in Austria, Denmark and holland to name a few. How have they been difficult?..........We know surely that the UK not trading with them is going to put a lot of their workers out of a job just as it will us .........yet they have not been forthcoming with many ideas as to ideas how things could work. Germany seems to be the main one complaining about the EU's stance on our leaving without agreement.

Got any links to those complaints Beddy? I can’t find anything that hints at criticism of the EU from Merkel over no-deal. She was one of the strong supporters of the extension to Article 50.

 

[VocalMinority]

It's been mentioned in Austria, Denmark and holland to name a few. How have they been difficult?..........We know surely that the UK not trading with them is going to put a lot of their workers out of a job just as it will us .........yet they have not been forthcoming with many ideas as to ideas how things could work. Germany seems to be the main one complaining about the EU's stance on our leaving without agreement.

We're the ones making this difficult. I don't know whether I posted this here before but this video is a good summary of why the trade talks have stalled:

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The EU have been more generous than I would have been in giving us time to make a decision.

 

[Beddy]

Got any links to those complaints Beddy? I can’t find anything that hints at criticism of the EU from Merkel over no-deal. She was one of the strong supporters of the extension to Article 50.

No mate ......most of my info comes from business meetings with CEO's and the like............They seem to think there is a few countries watching how we get on for what ever reason. There was a couple of speeches I understand I think it was in the Euro although it could have been the German parliament criticising the Eu's stance on the negotiations. That came from I think he was a CEO from Mercedes at the time but don't quote me on that as I could have been mistaken as I met so many different people on those couple of days.