Is there a risk of us falling into mid table obscurity?

[BrunelGooner]

Is there a risk of us falling into mid table obscurity if we do not seriously invest in this team over the next few years?

Right now, I think we can all agree that the race for the Champions League spots is the most competitive it has ever been. Chelsea, Manchester United, Arsenal, Manchester City, Liverpool and Spurs are all competing for 4 spots. This means two sides each season will not get that Champions League income (unless one of them wins the Europa). The margins are so tight, that one result can make a world of difference. In fact, it is that tight, that goal difference could be a decisive factor in determining the outcome of 4th and 5th.

However, these are not the only clubs we should be worried about, in my opinion. Just two examples:

Wolves are owned by Foshun International, which are a Chinese conglomerate. They have been wealthy enough to attract a top European manager in Nuno Espirito Santo, in addition to attracting some of the better players in Europe as a result. The likes of Raul Jimenez, Diogo Jota, Jonny Otto, Joao Moutinho, Ruben Neves etc. Some of these players would be vast improvements on what we have currently! But for a newly promoted club, they have supported Nuno in the transfer market and won't want this to be a fluke season. They have reiterated their commitment to spending and improving their team.

Everton, owned by Iranian billionaire Farhad Moshiri, have shown to be big spenders in the last few seasons. They spent £80m last Summer, £160m the year before that (net spend of £50m), and £74m the year before that. With ex-Arsenal shareholder Alisher Usmanov also being close friends with Moshiri, coupled with him also expressing an interest in Everton previously, could they both be planning something big for the blue half of Merseyside?

The point I am making is simple. There are clubs outside the top 6 with ambitious owners who will be looking to break that stronghold at the top of the table currently. If we are not serious about investing in our squad, we risk falling even further behind the pack.

Hell, even West Ham have spent £40m on the likes of Felipe Anderson.

But this is why I say this Summer and the next one will define which direction we go in as a club. We NEED to invest well for the sake of our future. Otherwise there are some bleak times ahead.

Does anyone else have this fear?

 

[BrunelGooner]

Let me just make something clear - this isn't a slant on Emery, this is a concern I have with Kroenke as owner.

Regardless of how this season ends, whether we get 4th or not, whether we win the Europa League or not, we need Emery to be properly backed this Summer.

There's no point giving him a budget of £50m and expecting him to improve us the following season if other clubs are spending three or four times that amount.

 

[TheBear]

Although I agree it IS possible. I dont agree with the concept that we have to spend to avoid that situation.

Sometimes spending £70-80 Million is a great idea - take DeLigt for example. Morata on the other hand.. So yes we can spend 1/3 of what City/Chelsea spend and still compete - Dortmund, Tottenham, Atheti have all done this recently.

You can spend money and yet still end up there. Its all about wise investment, good management and youth recruitment.

Throwing a bunch of money at players we cant afford is not necessarily the best solution. We dont have the safety net Clubs like Chelsea/City and PSG do.

 

[BrunelGooner]

Although I agree it IS possible. I dont agree with the concept that we have to spend to avoid that situation.

Sometimes spending £70-80 Million is a great idea - take DeLigt for example. Morata on the other hand.. So yes we can spend 1/3 of what City/Chelsea spend and still compete - Dortmund, Tottenham, Atheti have all done this recently.

You can spend money and yet still end up there. Its all about wise investment, good management and youth recruitment.

Throwing a bunch of money at players we cant afford is not necessarily the best solution. We dont have the safety net Clubs like Chelsea/City and PSG do.

I completely agree with you in many ways, and you can even point to United (who have the highest wage bill in the league) as people who have misspent and wasted lots of money.

But I am not saying we adopt a scattergun approach and pay premiums for every single world-class player or big name, which is what United did. Because, as you say, we don't have the safety net of the mega bucks clubs to get away with it.

What I am advocating is a targeted approach where we know what type of player we want, we know the position that needs to be upgraded and the scouting network/Emery are confident in their ability to develop at the club.

However - with this approach, we cannot hide from the fact that we will need to spend a lot of money if we want the highly-rated prospects/players that we are looking for.

I believe we need another CB, LB, RW and CM. We will not cover those positions with a meagre £50m. Not in this day and age. So we will need to look and spend between £110m - £150m for those positions. It might sound like a lot, but when the likes of Everton are spending that much too, I really don't think it is a lot. Also, we have a huge rebuilding job to do. And good players cost good money.

So, whilst there is a risk, just like there is with every new signing, it is one we need to be willing to take.

If we want to compete with the best teams, we need to invest wisely but properly.

 

[omogooner]

Couple of points, will I trust this guy to identify talent? Will spending money guarantee success, sadly no to both questions. Spuds rarely spend, has this guy actually got a plan, does he and his crew actually coach this guys, what are his tactics with the personnel at his disposal? Liverpool on paper are not as good as City, however they have taken the fight to city. Can this guy motivate the team to achieve and improve year on year? From what I have seen, sadly not!

 

[white_gunner]

Of course it’s possible.

Look at Newcastle, Leeds, and to a lesser extent Liverpool ca 2010-2015.

But honestly what are we going to do about it? Sure we could boycott games I supposed but at the end of it, the club has shown it does not give a **** about the fans. And with all the TV money driving everything anyway, I guess we don’t matter. Kroenke will spend what he wants, he took the club private for that reason.

 

[Mick O'Toon]

I wouldn't say obscurity but mid table yes.

 

[PINKIE]

I completely agree with you in many ways, and you can even point to United (who have the highest wage bill in the league) as people who have misspent and wasted lots of money.

But I am not saying we adopt a scattergun approach and pay premiums for every single world-class player or big name, which is what United did. Because, as you say, we don't have the safety net of the mega bucks clubs to get away with it.

What I am advocating is a targeted approach where we know what type of player we want, we know the position that needs to be upgraded and the scouting network/Emery are confident in their ability to develop at the club.

However - with this approach, we cannot hide from the fact that we will need to spend a lot of money if we want the highly-rated prospects/players that we are looking for.

I believe we need another CB, LB, RW and CM. We will not cover those positions with a meagre £50m. Not in this day and age. So we will need to look and spend between £110m - £150m for those positions. It might sound like a lot, but when the likes of Everton are spending that much too, I really don't think it is a lot. Also, we have a huge rebuilding job to do. And good players cost good money.

So, whilst there is a risk, just like there is with every new signing, it is one we need to be willing to take.

If we want to compete with the best teams, we need to invest wisely but properly.

We absolutely need another CB and CM and we also need a big clear out of players who quite simply aren't good enough and don't have a winning mentality. I don't even think we need to sign big money names. We just need more players in this team who will graft and don't give up.

 

[omogooner]

What I would like to know is what was Emery's brief when he got the job? What target was he set - Hopefully Champions League qualification was top of the agenda.. If does not deliver, then it should be cherio!

 

[The RDBD]

What I would like to know is what was Emery's brief when he got the job? What target was he set - Hopefully Champions League qualification was top of the agenda.. If does not deliver, then it should be cherio!

Probably : free pass this season - CL qualification by any route is a bonus.

If in the EL for 2019-20, then CL or bust ??
For 4 consecutive seasons in the EL would put massive finance
stress on your club.

 

[FosseFilberto]

Is there a risk of us falling into mid table obscurity if we do not seriously invest in this team over the next few years?

Right now, I think we can all agree that the race for the Champions League spots is the most competitive it has ever been. Chelsea, Manchester United, Arsenal, Manchester City, Liverpool and Spurs are all competing for 4 spots. This means two sides each season will not get that Champions League income (unless one of them wins the Europa). The margins are so tight, that one result can make a world of difference. In fact, it is that tight, that goal difference could be a decisive factor in determining the outcome of 4th and 5th.

However, these are not the only clubs we should be worried about, in my opinion. Just two examples:

Wolves are owned by Foshun International, which are a Chinese conglomerate. They have been wealthy enough to attract a top European manager in Nuno Espirito Santo, in addition to attracting some of the better players in Europe as a result. The likes of Raul Jimenez, Diogo Jota, Jonny Otto, Joao Moutinho, Ruben Neves etc. Some of these players would be vast improvements on what we have currently! But for a newly promoted club, they have supported Nuno in the transfer market and won't want this to be a fluke season. They have reiterated their commitment to spending and improving their team.

Everton, owned by Iranian billionaire Farhad Moshiri, have shown to be big spenders in the last few seasons. They spent £80m last Summer, £160m the year before that (net spend of £50m), and £74m the year before that. With ex-Arsenal shareholder Alisher Usmanov also being close friends with Moshiri, coupled with him also expressing an interest in Everton previously, could they both be planning something big for the blue half of Merseyside?

The point I am making is simple. There are clubs outside the top 6 with ambitious owners who will be looking to break that stronghold at the top of the table currently. If we are not serious about investing in our squad, we risk falling even further behind the pack.

Hell, even West Ham have spent £40m on the likes of Felipe Anderson.

But this is why I say this Summer and the next one will define which direction we go in as a club. We NEED to invest well for the sake of our future. Otherwise there are some bleak times ahead.

Does anyone else have this fear?

Our owner is giving Brenda a £200 million war chest by all accounts ... not that he needs to spend that much of it, judging by today

 

[Treble]

Couple of points, will I trust this guy to identify talent? Will spending money guarantee success, sadly no to both questions. Spuds rarely spend, has this guy actually got a plan, does he and his crew actually coach this guys, what are his tactics with the personnel at his disposal? Liverpool on paper are not as good as City, however they have taken the fight to city. Can this guy motivate the team to achieve and improve year on year? From what I have seen, sadly not!

What I would like to know is what was Emery's brief when he got the job? What target was he set - Hopefully Champions League qualification was top of the agenda.. If does not deliver, then it should be cherio!

That's a rather immediate expectation which you haven't afforded Liverpool when comparing. Where did Liverpool finish in Klopp's first year? What has Liverpool's recurring problem been under Klopp prior to this season? Primarily the defence which seems to be Arsenal's problem atm. Liverpool have taken 4 years under Klopp to be in the position they are now, but they weren't always like this. And prior to this season they finished outside the Top 4 in his first season and no higher than 4th after that.

I don't know if Emery is good enough to meet the expectations of Arsenal, but it's too early to make your mind up given his pedigree.

 

[BrunelGooner]

Our owner is giving Brenda a £200 million war chest by all accounts ... not that he needs to spend that much of it, judging by today

I don't know if you're joking or not, but you're proving my point. The likes of Everton, Wolves, Leicester and Watford will close the gap on teams 3rd - 6th if things continue as they are. Right now, we look the most susceptible to fall into mid table and be overtaken by the aforementioned clubs if changes aren't made this Summer.

Our wage bill is absolutely disgraceful. And the players who we want to leave are old, so they have little resale value. Our CL hopes are looking ominous. And we have an owner who, so far, has shown no ambition/interest in improving us.

I have tried to be positive all season, but it is becoming increasingly difficult about our prospects when the club aren't doing anything to ease our worries.

 

[FosseFilberto]

I don't know if you're joking or not, but you're proving my point. The likes of Everton, Wolves, Leicester and Watford will close the gap on teams 3rd - 6th if things continue as they are. Right now, we look the most susceptible to fall into mid table and be overtaken by the aforementioned clubs if changes aren't made this Summer.

Our wage bill is absolutely disgraceful. And the players who we want to leave are old, so they have little resale value. Our CL hopes are looking ominous. And we have an owner who, so far, has shown no ambition/interest in improving us.

I have tried to be positive all season, but it is becoming increasingly difficult about our prospects when the club aren't doing anything to ease our worries.

my post was largely tongue-in-cheek, as those of you gunners that post on the General Prem board would probably know - plus it was partly prompted by your omission of us from 'potential' threats to you being assured of top 6 - in all honestly I wouldn't swap our current, young and vibrant squad for any of the teams currently competing for 7th.

Brendan has indeed been informed that he has up to £200 million to invest in the summer - but I don't think we need more than 2 or 3 additions, provided we secure Tielemans, which is by no means certain as he is now attracting lots of attention.

But as I posted yesterday, in 50 years of watching Leicester, I have never seen us so dominant against an Arsenal team - and the sending off masks that a bit, because we were well on top before it.

Of the team that played you yesterday, Harvey Barnes (21) and Hamza Choudhry (21) have been promoted to the England U-23s this season.

James Maddison (22) and Demarai Gray (22) have been called up to the Senior England squad by Southgate this season.

Harry Maguire (26) and Ben Chilwell (22) are established at the heart of England's defence.

Wilfred Ndidi (22) is a full Nigerian international

Your I Tielemans (21) is a full Belgian international

We also have other exceptional young players either out on loan or not involved yesterday.

In marked contrast to your post, our recruitment efforts and evolution from our academy have been excellent, and Brendan Rodgers seems to be just the right type to manage such exciting young talent.

We are really looking forward to watching this young team evolve over the next few seasons ... hope things get better for you

 

[Mick O'Toon]

Fulham issued a statement stating there is no way they want any of Arsenal's defenders!

 

[omogooner]

To be honest, I will not swap a lot of Leicester players for the players we have. The fact that Leicester beat us 3-nil yesterday, does not mean they are all of a sudden better than us. The league table does not lie. However, my contention is that with an Excellent Manager, we should be higher than where we currently are in the League! We beat Spurs 4-2 earlier on in the season, (does not mean all of a sudden we are now better than them! Watford played better than us even with 10 men, does not mean, they are better than us. The league is not judged on 1v1 it is judged on consistently, and over the course of 38 games! So lets not get carried away and start blowing the trumpet of these lesser teams. There is a minimum 10point gap between 6th and 7th - that gap is there to highlight the gulf in class.

Burnley will more than likely beat us on the last day of season, does that then mean they have closed the gap? Absolutely not. We are never buy a defender for 80mill or spend big like Mancity, however, the Manager ought to be set up his team on a game by game basis. We played Leicester yesterday, like he has never seen them play. This is why he gets paid the big bucks!

 

[BrunelGooner]

my post was largely tongue-in-cheek, as those of you gunners that post on the General Prem board would probably know - plus it was partly prompted by your omission of us from 'potential' threats to you being assured of top 6 - in all honestly I wouldn't swap our current, young and vibrant for any of the teams currently competing for 7th.

Brendan has indeed been informed that he has up to £200 million to invest in the summer - but I don't think we need more than 2 or 3 additions, provided we secure Tielemans, which is by no means certain as he is now attracting lots of attention.

But as I posted yesterday, in 50 years of watching Leicester, I have never seen us so dominant against an Arsenal team - and the sending off masks that a bit, because we were well on top before it.

Of the team that played you yesterday, Harvey Barnes (21) and Hamas Choudhry (21) have been promoted to the England U-23s this season.

James Maddison (22) and Demarai Gray (22) have been called up to the Senior England squad by Southgate this season.

Harry Maguire (26) and Ben Chilwell (22) are established at the heart of England's defence.

Wilfred Ndidi (22) is a full Nigerian international

Your I Tielemans (21) is a full Belgian international

We also have other exceptional young players either out on loan or not involved yesterday.

In marked contrast to your post, our recruitment efforts and evolution from our academy have been excellent, and Brendan Rodgers seems to be just the right type to manage such exciting young talent.

We are really looking forward to watching this young team evolve over the next few seasons ... hope things get better for you

Apologies mate, I wasn't trying to deliberately omit Leicester from the clubs I mentioned, I just gave a couple of examples from the top of my head of clubs outside the established top-six who have spent significant sums of money.

I was very impressed with your team yesterday actually and think you've got players who would easily walk into ours.

That Tielemans looks quality. He had a big reputation at Anderlecht, but didn't really work out for him at Monaco, so I was quite surprised that Leicester took him on loan. Fair play though, what an impact he's had since joining you. Exceptional little player. Would be brilliant if you could sign him on a permanent deal. Maybe he just needed to be nurtured in the right environment to flourish.

The other players you mention are absolutely class too and I've been a big fan of Chilwell for the past couple of seasons, but think he is out of our price range now if we tried to buy him.

I'm happy that Leicester are in a good position, you deserve it after some of the things you've had to go through this past year. I hope you do well.

I was born in Leicester. Lived in Nottingham until I was 12 though, so Forest are my second team , but I still like to see the Midlands clubs do well.

Appreciate the good wishes . Unfortunately I think a lot of Arsenal fans should adjust their expectations because we aren't going to be challenging for anything for a good 5 years or so, in my view.

Nevertheless, best of luck for the future, I hope you achieve big things next season

 

[PINKIE]

Arsenal will be okay under Emery. We've already seen him get more points that Wenger last season and our home form has been really good. We've also beaten Spurs, Chelsea and Utd this season, we're two points from 4th and in the Semi Final of the Europa League. If anybody had said that at the beginning of the season we'd all be saying that's a decent first season.

Emery needs time. He's got to be given a chance to stamp his own mould on this squad, so that going to take 2-3 transfer windows (presuming the board back him) and unfortunately it might take a while before we can move on the likes of Ozil and Mkhitaryan and free up their wages. But that is not Emery's fault.

 

[BrunelGooner]

Arsenal will be okay under Emery. We've already seen him get more points that Wenger last season and our home form has been really good. We've also beaten Spurs, Chelsea and Utd this season, we're two points from 4th and in the Semi Final of the Europa League. If anybody had said that at the beginning of the season we'd all be saying that's a decent first season.

Emery needs time. He's got to be given a chance to stamp his own mould on this squad, so that going to take 2-3 transfer windows (presuming the board back him) and unfortunately it might take a while before we can move on the likes of Ozil and Mkhitaryan and free up their wages. But that is not Emery's fault.

As I've said in the article, it's not Emery that I have an issue with. It's the owner and even the board.

When Josh Kroenke, Stan's son, came to London and answered questions from the supporters, he said that he has no doubt we will be winning Champions League finals soon. Whilst his positivity is commendable, I don't think his answer was relevant to the reality of our situation currently and, crucially, how long it will take to get to that point.

It was no different to when Stan Kroenke released a statement a few years back saying that he has ambition to win league titles and European trophies. That's all well and good, but what are you doing to help enforce that reality?

This is the first time we will have Kroenke as the complete owner of the club, so if he is serious about all the things he was saying, then he has no choice but to put his money where his mouth is.

Emery has done well to have us in this position, but we need substantial investment in the Summer. Otherwise Emery is trying to help us obtain an objective with one hand tied behind his back, whilst the other clubs are moving forward.

 

[PINKIE]

As I've said in the article, it's not Emery that I have an issue with. It's the owner and even the board.

When Josh Kroenke, Stan's son, came to London and answered questions from the supporters, he said that he has no doubt we will be winning Champions League finals soon. Whilst his positivity is commendable, I don't think his answer was relevant to the reality of our situation currently and, crucially, how long it will take to get to that point.

It was no different to when Stan Kroenke released a statement a few years back saying that he has ambition to win league titles and European trophies. That's all well and good, but what are you doing to help enforce that reality?

This is the first time we will have Kroenke as the complete owner of the club, so if he is serious about all the things he was saying, then he has no choice but to put his money where his mouth is.

Emery has done well to have us in this position, but we need substantial investment in the Summer. Otherwise Emery is trying to help us obtain an objective with one hand tied behind his back, whilst the other clubs are moving forward.

Agreed. Ambition is one thing, backing it up with money is the real test though.

You now have City, Liverpool, Utd, Chelsea all spending huge money. Spurs who have assembled a really good starting XI and clubs like Everton, Wolves and Leicester who are looking to break into the top 6 too.

Kronke need to back Emery otherwise we could well fall behind all of these clubs.