WW2

[Barchullona]

To argue that one nation saved the rest during the Second World War is laughable.

Assigning greater value to one at the expense of the other cheapens the efforts of those involved.

In saying that, I would argue that nations like France, Poland and China among others deserve way more credit than they ever get, rather than everyone constantly going on about the 'big three'.


My main gripe with all this is, which is mostly unrelated, is that the Second World War wasn't the second World War. It was at least the third.

France, Poland and China, though they all suffered in WW2, especially Poland and China, which lost 20million, don't deserve more credit than they got. They couldn't do anything. They were occupied. They didn't drive the enemy out, others had to invade to enable their freedom. The Poles were brave, especially in the Warsaw Uprising where the Soviets sat by and saw the Polish Resistance wiped out to make it easier to control after the war.

 

[Barchullona]

It’s definitely complex.

But a few things to recall (not exhaustive by any stretch and just off the top of my head/when should be in bed):


Germany declared war on the USA in Dec 1941. There wasn’t a big appetite for joining the war in the USA – though to be fair, British appetite for war wasn’t that high either – particularly preceding and peaking in May 1940

USA exacted heavy price from UK: territory, technology, repayments

Failed Dieppe raid (’42 or ’43 – can’t remember) demonstrated need for concerted build-up to make a second front work

Battle of the Atlantic was also key, plus the threat of second front kept some important units in the west.

Chances are that after Germany failed to complete Barbarossa by 1941 (off the top, I think helping Mussolini in Balkans/Greece waylaid them from a March start to June), odds were very much stacked.

US/UK Italian campaign also diverted Wehrmacht units from west and east.

If alone in Europe, USSR would not have stopped in Germany, they would have ploughed on ‘liberating west’ if second front hadn’t been established (unless French Resistance/ govt in exile had re-taken control from a collapsing Reich). Plus, difficult to imagine Stalin attacking so-called Allies at that point, but the extra territories would have meant a very different Cold War, especially with all of the German powerhouse (and more) in its midst. Find it interesting to think if they’d have gone for Franco somehow too, if unopposed.



Anyway, regardless of the counter-factual last paragraph, it’s an interesting debate.

Sums it up well there, Leon. The delay in Barbarossa was a major thing. Stalin would probably have continued across Europe at some stage as the Americans demobilized pretty quickly and the Soviets still had millions under arms. The fact the Americans had the bomb restrained further expansion. Dropping the bombs on Japan was a warning to them as much as to defeat Japan.

 

[Newland Tiger]

I admit I was quite fascinated by WW2 when I was younger , it was one of the few things in history that interested me at school
my opinion now though is that a lot of English people have a very strange obsession with it

 

[dazzar86]

Obviously America had a big part to play in WWII, but the Americans over-inflated view of it all stems from the way Hollywood portrays America during that period.

Quite a few films have been called out for their altering of history to make it look like the Americans came in and solved everything.

Even in fictional movies like Captain America, it depict this 'all American hero' that comes in and effortlessly tackles the Nazis while everyone else is struggling to do so.

 

[originalminority]

I admit I was quite fascinated by WW2 when I was younger , it was one of the few things in history that interested me at school
my opinion now though is that a lot of English people have a very strange obsession with it

It was a far wider conflict than any school textbook taught us. The aftermath saw civil wars and anti-colonial wars carrying on for years. The Polish resistance fought the Soviets upto 1953. The Greek civil war carried on until 1949. The Chinese civil war carried on until 1950. 2 million people died in the partition of India in 1947. The cold war aftermath didn't really end until the Berlin Wall came down in 1989!

 

[Quill]

Obviously America had a big part to play in WWII, but the Americans over-inflated view of it all stems from the way Hollywood portrays America during that period.

Quite a few films have been called out for their altering of history to make it look like the Americans came in and solved everything.

Even in fictional movies like Captain America, it depict this 'all American hero' that comes in and effortlessly tackles the Nazis while everyone else is struggling to do so.

That's because he's a superhero which was created as actual propaganda during the 40s. The very first issue of his comic had him smashing Hitler in the face on the cover. It makes sense for him to be like that, at least in the first film.


I imagine there is also plenty of British films which make us look the best too. Same with Russia.

 

[originallambrettaman]

That's because he's a superhero which was created as actual propaganda during the 40s. The very first issue of his comic had him smashing Hitler in the face on the cover. It makes sense for him to be like that, at least in the first film.


I imagine there is also plenty of British films which make us look the best too. Same with Russia.

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[RichardG]

The cold war aftermath didn't really end until the Berlin Wall came down in 1989!

You think it's ended?

 

[Barchullona]

That's because he's a superhero which was created as actual propaganda during the 40s. The very first issue of his comic had him smashing Hitler in the face on the cover. It makes sense for him to be like that, at least in the first film.


I imagine there is also plenty of British films which make us look the best too. Same with Russia.

We didn't make things up, like The Great Escape where no Americans were actually involved. Films like Private Ryan and about Anzio ignore the fact others were involved and all the landings were protected by the Royal Navy. They even have the American navy capturing Enigma machines that our navy did.
Impressionable young people think those films represent the war accurately.

 

[HullCityAFC1904]

I've been watching a lot of stuff on WW2 recently (thank you Yesterday channel and my newborn daughter). An American friend of mine loves to trot out the "we saved your asses line" frequently when the subject comes up over a few beers, but the more I watch and learn, the more it seems that they actually didn't.

Now, I don't want to downplay America's contribution to the war, so many brave people gave their lives in that war and to that end it's sort of why it pisses me off when they say that, because if I've got this right, the Russian's had already broken the Eastern Axis line and were making headway into Belorussia when the Americans arrived in Europe (I know they declared war on the Axis in 1941).

Things were tight, but we had won the Battle of Britain, there were no German soldiers on British soil and despite France making a total hash of it, we kept our chins up.

So, did they "save our asses" (it's arses, come on lads)? Or are they teaching a slightly different version of history over there?

The Russians had the most impact on the European war as a single entity, repelling and destroying the German invasion and advancing to Berlin and the Americans had the decisive impact on the war against the Japanese in the Pacific. I've seen a great documentary on Sky recently called Hitlers Last Stand which documented lesser known aspects of the war. In one particular incident at the end of the war, German soldiers fought with the Americans against SS fanatics to save important French dignitaries and help France recover after the war, it was a remarkable story.

 

[Quill]

The Russians had the most impact on the European war as a single entity, repelling and destroying the German invasion and advancing to Berlin and the Americans had the decisive impact on the war against the Japanese in the Pacific. I've seen a great documentary on Sky recently called Hitlers Last Stand which documented lesser known aspects of the war. In one particular incident at the end of the war, German soldiers fought with the Americans against SS fanatics to save important French dignitaries and help France recover after the war, it was a remarkable story.

The Battle of Castle Itter? I believe that was the very final conflict of the European theater.

Would make a great film.

 

[HullCityAFC1904]

The Battle of Castle Itter? I believe that was the very final conflict of the European theater.

Would make a great film.

My thoughts exactly, and it was that. The story is incredible, and even involved a French Wimbledon champion helping to save the day

 

[Quill]

My thoughts exactly, and it was that. The story is incredible, and even involved a French Wimbledon champion helping to save the day

Yep, Jean Borotra.

Honestly, I'm amazed nobody has tried to make a film about it.

 

[HullCityAFC1904]

Yep, Jean Borotra.

Honestly, I'm amazed nobody has tried to make a film about it.

The documentary was the first I've known of it. Also they had ex French presidents joining the battle with machine guns alongside the German soldiers. I think it was the last episode of Hitlers Last Stand so will probably be online somewhere or on Sky. I actually learn a lot watching some of the dafter documentaries like Hunting Hitler as they uncover side stories that are real. Hitler himself, I think they found very recently definitive evidence that he did end up dead at the bunker despite the conspiracy theories.

 

[originalminority]

Yep, Jean Borotra.

Honestly, I'm amazed nobody has tried to make a film about it.

There is still a wealth of stories that would make great war films but the market is shrinking. The Germans seem to be keener on making WW2 films now then us and the Americans, Das Boot etc.

 

[Dr. Stanley]

The Soviets supplied the Germans for over 18 months with materials they used whilst rampaging through France, Belgium etc and bombing us. In fact German troops passed trains laden with raw material heading for Germany as they headed into Russia. If they Soviets hadn't signed the non aggression pact the Nazis wouldn't have dared invade Poland when they did.

I agree, but would add the point that Stalin, having wiped out his Military's officer echelon, struck the non-aggression pact with Germany, in order to play for time - to rebuild the Military. Stalin, paranoid as ever, believed that Hitler would advance eastwards, as soon as the German Military was able.

 

[C'mon ref]

Most of these comments are attributed to the more well known parts of WW2, but for me its the many sub plots that make up the story that are more fascinating. Bletchley Park, and Alan Turing's brilliant mind, also Gordon Welshman and Hugh Alexander who helped to built the 'Bombe'. And of course the Poles who smuggled the Enigma machine out of Germany and passed on their information to the British. The Man Who Never Was, the deception plan that kept some Panzer divisions from the D Day Landings by fooling the Germans of the true positioning of the landing. I'm no lover of the French but their Free French lost a lot of brave people sheltering allied pilots who had been shot down, like wise some Nordic countries had people checking on German military movements and reported that to the British. There are so many instance of this kind, and whilst some have been acknowledged, many have to remain secret and will never be know, although some books that I have read hint and some hair raising exploits on our behalf. Many years ago I watched a Parkinson interview with Peter Ustinov and he told the story of his father, who had been working at the German Embassy at the outbreak of war. Ustinov went on to tell us the several old gentlemen visited their house to see his father, Peter himself was told to make himself scarce, which he thought very odd. Broaching his father near the end of the war about that incident those old gentlemen were high ranking German military officers who had come to appeal to Ustinov senior to get the British government to go along with them in assonating Hitler. Our government officials thought it was a trap and sent Ustinov Snr on his way, all this happened before the start of the war, the interview is still on YouTube.

 

[RichardG]

Most of these comments are attributed to the more well known parts of WW2, but for me its the many sub plots that make up the story that are more fascinating. Bletchley Park, and Alan Turing's brilliant mind, also Gordon Welshman and Hugh Alexander who helped to built the 'Bombe'. And of course the Poles who smuggled the Enigma machine out of Germany and passed on their information to the British. The Man Who Never Was, the deception plan that kept some Panzer divisions from the D Day Landings by fooling the Germans of the true positioning of the landing. I'm no lover of the French but their Free French lost a lot of brave people sheltering allied pilots who had been shot down, like wise some Nordic countries had people checking on German military movements and reported that to the British. There are so many instance of this kind, and whilst some have been acknowledged, many have to remain secret and will never be know, although some books that I have read hint and some hair raising exploits on our behalf. Many years ago I watched a Parkinson interview with Peter Ustinov and he told the story of his father, who had been working at the German Embassy at the outbreak of war. Ustinov went on to tell us the several old gentlemen visited their house to see his father, Peter himself was told to make himself scarce, which he thought very odd. Broaching his father near the end of the war about that incident those old gentlemen were high ranking German military officers who had come to appeal to Ustinov senior to get the British government to go along with them in assonating Hitler. Our government officials thought it was a trap and sent Ustinov Snr on his way, all this happened before the start of the war, the interview is still on YouTube.

Are you familiar with the story of Garbo, the double agent who gave the Germans the full plans to D-Day before the invasion happened (all part of a fantastic double bluff that worked brilliantly and ended up buying us crucial time after the landings)? The guy is fascinating, and he was the only person to be awarded the Iron Cross and become a Member of the Order of the British Empire. I went to see the house in Hendon where he did it all from a few years ago, as well as the emergency bunker in Neasden not too far away. Both so non-descript but both utterly fascinating.

 

[Dr. Stanley]

The war in Burma is pretty much ignored, but Orde Wingate and the Chindits, operating behind Japanese lines, possibly prevented the Japanese from reaching India.

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[Leon...]

Sums it up well there, Leon. The delay in Barbarossa was a major thing. Stalin would probably have continued across Europe at some stage as the Americans demobilized pretty quickly and the Soviets still had millions under arms. The fact the Americans had the bomb restrained further expansion. Dropping the bombs on Japan was a warning to them as much as to defeat Japan.

From memory (so apologies for any probable memory mistakes in this but apart from reading the odd bit/watch the odd film/series/ I’ve not done much with this sort of stuff for 20 years) the Japanese feared a Soviet invasion – perhaps in memory of a ‘retribution’ for 1904/05, but perhaps mainly because of a ‘red terror’.

The bomb(s) probably were more about USSR than Japan, true. Dropping two also demonstrated they could make them and deploy them relatively quickly. Truman is supposed to have told Stalin a month or so prior about the bomb, but I’m sure he already knew by then.

If I recall correctly, Stalin agreed to join the war in the Pacific at Yalta (or conference prior) – with a specified engagement time post VE Day. But by this time coming ‘round, Truman, knowing the war would be won and wanting to limit ‘red’ expansion – crucial for them - so needed a quicker victory – hence Nagasaki. Although, there is opinion that it was the red threat, rather than just the bomb, which expedited the Japanese surrender to the USA as over a million RKKA soldiers crossed into Manchuria (on same day as Hiroshima I think)

I’m sure I recall reading Truman’s diaries or journals from the time too – think he respected Stalin despite loathing everything associated with 'socialism'.