Off Topic So, what now?

[oneforthebristolcity]

The fact that Parliament aren't able to make up their minds, I think it should be left to the people......First of all, parliament should come up with a choice of two deals and then there should be a tick box for "No deal".
We have already had the vote regarding "staying or leaving". In my book, democracy says, the people voted out...and that's what it should be..

 

[invermeremike]

I know I look on from afar but I don't like what I see in Corbyn as it seems his only agenda is to become Prime minister at all cost and to hell with the people. I feel that he will fight anything and anybody to get his way,whether it is right or wrong. Am I anywhere close?

 

[BCFCRob]

The fact that Parliament aren't able to make up their minds, I think it should be left to the people......First of all, parliament should come up with a choice of two deals and then there should be a tick box for "No deal".
We have already had the vote regarding "staying or leaving". In my book, democracy says, the people voted out...and that's what it should be..

The issue here though being that if you'd taken away the lies from both sides, and if you'd taken away the cheating tactics the leave side used (now found to be illegal), chances are that leave almost certainly wouldn't have won. If you understand what they had done with Cambridge Analytica and the like, you'd see that what they've done is absolutely horrendous in terms of a fair vote. Without meaning to sound disrespectful, if you haven't read up on it or don't work in the industry it's quite difficult to understand, but I strongly recommend looking into it.

I completely agree a second referendum would be an absolute farce and cause tons of anger, but the fact is that the original referendum was flawed from the beginning in that it was worded wrongly and had all sorts of corruption surrounding it. People can use the 'but it's democracy' argument, but there is literally nothing more democratic than asking the people what they want again. That is, to a word, what democracy is.

I know I look on from afar but I don't like what I see in Corbyn as it seems his only agenda is to become Prime minister at all cost and to hell with the people. I feel that he will fight anything and anybody to get his way,whether it is right or wrong. Am I anywhere close?

I think May and Corbyn have both been pretty damn useless in all honesty. May is doing everything she can to cling on to power, including delaying the vote from December to this week, which is absolutely criminal. We're facing one of the nations' largest crises in living memory with barely any time left, and she literally wasted a month away to try and keep her position in the house. She should be ashamed for doing that alone.

Corbyn divides opinion but his main failing has been his complete inability to have any kind of poignant stance on this. Though having said that, Labour's commitment that there needs to be an open border on Ireland and remaining the Customs Union would have helped things - and the criticism at him refusing to meet May last night is unwarranted. He reached out to help her last September and was ignored in return.

Just politicians being politicians I'm afraid. Completely and utterly incapable of putting the country first.

 

[BCFCRob]

I managed to find this by the way gents:
https://www.not606.com/threads/european-debate-thread.328676/

Probably will be some interesting reading in there. No judgment meant, I knew absolutely nothing compared to what I know now so I have absolutely no doubt I was spouting a fair amount of bollocks myself. Just thought it might be interesting to take a look.

 

[invermeremike]

Politicians - who needs them?

 

[AshtonRed]

I'm fully aware that myself and JGF got quite heated last time around with this discussion, so I'm going to try and make a conscious effort to not be rude here even if things do get controversial. A healthy debate is the best way and we have some decent chats on here, I've no intention of derailing it again .

So the question being, what do we think will happen? Well, a deal is not going to happen before the current Brexit deadline, as we all know that there is zero chance of getting it through Parliament. I'm also not convinced that a deal that appeases the majority of the population/Parliament actually exists. Given that fact, I think whatever May's Plan B is will also fail, which makes her consistent delay tactics all the worse.

An election is another possibility, but it seems that we won't get a majority there either. The Tories failed to get one last time around and according to all polls, Labour have made increases since then, so that will be full of complications. The only way this changes is if Labour, the SNP and Lib Dems all unanimously agree some sort of Brexit strategy, which again won't happen. So once again, we may well have the Brexit deadline extended to allow for the GE but it will all end in the same result.

So that leaves us with either a hard Brexit or withdrawing A50. Personally, I think the latter is more likely. Purely for the fact that a) a hard Brexit is literally impossible to implement at this time, not only due to Calais (that's just a massive problem, not an impossibility) but the due to the Irish border. And b) the risk that that would pose to general peace in the UK and Ireland over that side.

One thing I think we can all agree on. This is a complete and utter shambles.

Agree with most of your points , except the conclusion . There is no majority of MP’s for this , also I think it would undermine democracy to just go back on a decision made in a referendum, a Third referendum is more likely , at least MP’s would not be accused of overturning the decision.

I’m not overkeen on a rerun of the referendum however, as I don’t think it will solve anything, as whatever the result , unless it’s the same as the first one , one side or the other will feel cheated.

Therefore it’s down to the MP’s to come up with something they can get enough numbers behind to get through parliament.

If they can agree on a text around the backstop, someway of both sides , UK & EU , agreeing that there will be no hard border come what may, I do believe , despite their refusal so far, if we went to the EU united behind this they would listen, but only if we are united and if that will seal the deal.

 

[johngalleyfan2]

One thing I think we can all agree on. This is a complete and utter shambles. cheers

it is, and by design [ eu] need it to be and are probably worse than JC in trying to sabotage it for their own gain … the whole process is like IVY you get rid of it but it keeps coming back …!

I don’t know what you think on the point of the thread John . Do you have a view ? what do you think is going to happen next ?

in a debate, as was seen in the past few days by ALL the parliamentarians making major contributioons there was a base laid down to show where they were coming from .. like past achievements and failures!
The best thing in one way was TM winning last night as the process will continue, the last thing EU wants is a no deal …. so and I KNOW IT SEEMS after thought/ horses boltedbut got tied up in a load of things that kept me busy after 4pm else I would have mentioned, it is imperative that TM WINS, she will then, as she was stating embrace the house, constant references to it in past 2 days … but i would have added JC will not accept defeat gracefully and be an even more annoying "fly in the ointment" determined to have it his way.
Actually just got up, yep 1pm, late night so not seen any news ..good or bad yet … but I would hope JC DOESNT TRY and boycott or ban his MP'S from engaging, TM gets on with meetings as she stated, the EU take a deep breath,especially Macron and come to terms with we are leaving … to state an important world head of state ….. EU... BYE BYE, bye bye [ in case you mis read that is not Trumpie saying it!]
no border in EIRE /NI, trade agreement within Europe …. JC booted out …. we all live happily everafter …
ps NO one can say for sure what our economy will be like after the event … the biggest mouths shout doom and gloom … bit like the neggies that support a football team and lose a match or 2 !...…..

 

[johngalleyfan2]

In my book, democracy says, the people voted out...and that's what it should be..

The fact that Parliament aren't able to make up their minds,

IF THERE WAS A SECRET VOTE.... it would be likely that a few labour would have voted the opposite way as would a couple of SNP, still lost but by a lesser figure …
bearing in mind the labour put in no input, could not answer on at 30 times of being asked what they would come with then until JC HAS LOST ANY HOPE, along with the facially contorting Aides / Shadow Ministers that sit beside him when behind the box of getting a GE , then it is difficult to see people being able to make up their own minds ….better go get some breakfast now, I am starving!...………...

 

[oneforthebristolcity]

The issue here though being that if you'd taken away the lies from both sides, and if you'd taken away the cheating tactics the leave side used (now found to be illegal), chances are that leave almost certainly wouldn't have won. If you understand what they had done with Cambridge Analytica and the like, you'd see that what they've done is absolutely horrendous in terms of a fair vote. Without meaning to sound disrespectful, if you haven't read up on it or don't work in the industry it's quite difficult to understand, but I strongly recommend looking into it.
.

Had the vote gone to the remain, would any of the cheating tactics played a part in having another peoples vote? I don't think so.
I'm not convinced either, that people voted for deals either.....the question was, do we stay in or do we leave...........nothing about doing a deal.
In a general election, does EVERYONE know ALL of the polices by ALL of parties when voting?...I don't think so. So to know everything about what it means to come out or stay in the EU was a bit of a lottery.....I believe we all looked at what we thought was the pros and cons and went with it..I don't believe many went through it with a fine tooth comb and would they again if there was another vote..
The problem is, nearly half the nation will never be happy with whatever is decided!!

 

[BCFCRob]

Had the vote gone to the remain, would any of the cheating tactics played a part in having another peoples vote? I don't think so.

No because the data-driven 'cheating tactics' (i.e. Cambridge Analytica, AggregateIQ, etc) were used only by the leave side, so if remain had won there would have been no need. But I do see your point.

I'm not convinced either, that people voted for deals either.....the question was, do we stay in or do we leave...........nothing about doing a deal.
In a general election, does EVERYONE know ALL of the polices by ALL of parties when voting?...I don't think so. So to know everything about what it means to come out or stay in the EU was a bit of a lottery.....I believe we all looked at what we thought was the pros and cons and went with it..I don't believe many went through it with a fine tooth comb and would they again if there was another vote..
The problem is, nearly half the nation will never be happy with whatever is decided!!

Again, it's a fair point but even if you don't know what their policies are, the parties do at least tell you what they plan to do with their policies. In this instance, no one said what 'leave' would mean at all. Whether it would be a hard Brexit or soft Brexit - some of them said they'd go for a hard Brexit but loads who were campaigning for leave (including Farage) said they would be able to stay in the Customs Union. So there is a distinction.

 

[oneforthebristolcity]

No because the data-driven 'cheating tactics' (i.e. Cambridge Analytica, AggregateIQ, etc) were used only by the leave side, so if remain had won there would have been no need. But I do see your point.



Again, it's a fair point but even if you don't know what their policies are, the parties do at least tell you what they plan to do with their policies. In this instance, no one said what 'leave' would mean at all. Whether it would be a hard Brexit or soft Brexit - some of them said they'd go for a hard Brexit but loads who were campaigning for leave (including Farage) said they would be able to stay in the Customs Union. So there is a distinction.

No one asks if you want a soft divorce or a hard one from a marriage......divorce is divorce....The fact that 17m+ people didn't know but still voted out tells me they didn't care...there were no deals....First past the post, straight forward..
I'm not going to revile what my vote was, although some might say it's obvious....But I do believe in democracy, like the result or not..

 

[Cliftonville]

Again, it's a fair point but even if you don't know what their policies are, the parties do at least tell you what they plan to do with their policies. In this instance, no one said what 'leave' would mean at all. Whether it would be a hard Brexit or soft Brexit - some of them said they'd go for a hard Brexit but loads who were campaigning for leave (including Farage) said they would be able to stay in the Customs Union. So there is a distinction.

Again, it's a fair point but even if you don't know what their policies are, the parties do at least tell you what they plan to do with their policies. In this instance … The Conservatives and Labour both stated they would implement Britain leaving the EU if this was the result of the referendum.

 

[johngalleyfan2]

Had the vote gone to the remain,

??? THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO FOLLOWING ACTIONS!

I'm not convinced either, that people voted for deals either.....the question was, do we stay in or do we leave...........nothing about doing a deal. ...…. ......…. The problem is, nearly half the nation will never be happy with whatever is decided!!

That's the way a lot of leavers saw it, the remainers invent things like know more now etc .grasping at straws because they, the mouthy ones are on sour grapes!

CONSIDERABLY less than half the nation unhappy? as a few I know that voted remain accept it, BUT given a second referendum would vote the same, given chance to vote on "whats on the table next time

I'm not going to revile what my vote was

hope it wasn't vile!

 

[wizered]

I don't trust these politicians, we voted out by majority,they had their instructions,they should now be implemented if not they are treading a dangerous course.

Leave means leave and we knew and understood it, get out of your Westminster and Islington bubbles, stop behaving like a load of spoiled brats and get on with your jobs, stop frigging about with your own self importance, you are making a laughing stock of our great and brilliant country, bunch of half wits.

 

[johngalleyfan2]

the saddest part, and the erjit must be suffering from something … 62% of all the labour MP's were voted in by people that VOTED OUT...………. ! that's 157 of them BETRAYED their constituents by standing by the biggest betrayer of them all JC...
THE WAY FORWARD well [ what happens next] .. JC TAKING NO PART so everyone else gets around the table and hammers out the next deal, you can bet your life that any discussions will have loads of amendments attached by those that decided not to take up TM's OFFER... DID you notice that the 2 labour amendments were withdrawn at the last minute? that meant that 2 others were unable to be tabled... bit like parking the bus / deliberate tackles "taking one for the team" sort of tactic... disgusting...…… GE SOOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRY Jeremy you got blown out of the water!

 

[oneforthebristolcity]

??? THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO FOLLOWING ACTIONS!



That's the way a lot of leavers saw it, the remainers invent things like know more now etc .grasping at straws because they, the mouthy ones are on sour grapes!

CONSIDERABLY less than half the nation unhappy? as a few I know that voted remain accept it, BUT given a second referendum would vote the same, given chance to vote on "whats on the table next time


hope it wasn't vile!

Bloody phone!! Should have said " Had the vote gone to remain"!
Reveal to revile, I like that!

 

[oneforthebristolcity]

the saddest part, and the erjit must be suffering from something … 62% of all the labour MP's were voted in by people that VOTED OUT...………. ! that's 157 of them BETRAYED their constituents by standing by the biggest betrayer of them all JC...
THE WAY FORWARD well [ what happens next] .. JC TAKING NO PART so everyone else gets around the table and hammers out the next deal, you can bet your life that any discussions will have loads of amendments attached by those that decided not to take up TM's OFFER... DID you notice that the 2 labour amendments were withdrawn at the last minute? that meant that 2 others were unable to be tabled... bit like parking the bus / deliberate tackles "taking one for the team" sort of tactic... disgusting...…… GE SOOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRY Jeremy you got blown out of the water!

Dead worried about upsetting the apple cart in his own party, not worried about the people and what they voted whatsoever. Just wants to be in government. If you think it's a mess now, can't imagine what it would be like if he was in power..

 

[johngalleyfan2]

you are a voter.
a GENERAL ELECTION is called … 2020/21
conservatives have a new leader
Labour still stuck with jermy
you need to make a choice = conservatives done reasonably well been honest as far as politicians go .lol
labour ... 2 ways to assess ..
a) vote for a party whose leader seems to be cluless, self centered, liable to say what you want to hear so a few different ways of expressing himself on a subject and generally being obstructive
instructed all his MP'S with action unless they fell in line with the whip, irrespective of what the voters voted them in for …...
b) vote for a party whose leader has been relatively aggressive, but helpful, spouting truth's and constructively helping parliament deliver for the people, without throwing toys out of pram

 

[johngalleyfan2]

If you think it's a mess now, can't imagine what it would be like if he was in power..

historically we get in the mire moreso because all the money people / big business desert the UK … FEARED FOR 60% tax hikes etc.
Labour spend what they have not got, initially impresses, but then need to borrow for the next bit, ah we need to repay that so lets put up road tax, tax insurance increase VAT increase the threshold by which people pay tax … yippee they say, but up the rates in the pound cover that loss and by far more! 2nd year ummmmmmmmmmm coffers a bit short cant lose face, borrow some more and after the fourth year it wont be our worry as we will lose the GE then and the Tories will need to sort it …………………
If I was a conservative government I would in the last year do everything Labour said, spend out trillions for all the things they say they would do .. then lose the election..... sort that Jermy! a debt 2x bigger than your lot left! ……………

 

[AshtonRed]

historically we get in the mire moreso because all the money people / big business desert the UK … FEARED FOR 60% tax hikes etc.
Labour spend what they have not got, initially impresses, but then need to borrow for the next bit, ah we need to repay that so lets put up road tax, tax insurance increase VAT increase the threshold by which people pay tax … yippee they say, but up the rates in the pound cover that loss and by far more! 2nd year ummmmmmmmmmm coffers a bit short cant lose face, borrow some more and after the fourth year it wont be our worry as we will lose the GE then and the Tories will need to sort it …………………
If I was a conservative government I would in the last year do everything Labour said, spend out trillions for all the things they say they would do .. then lose the election..... sort that Jermy! a debt 2x bigger than your lot left! ……………

Think the world of you John, but you talk nonsense at times