Off Topic Politics Thread
- Thread starter ChilcoSaint
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Love to simply post a laughing emoji, but this is a very serious question. The answer is no, not on its own. It is a symptom of the class-ridden inequality that permeates British culture. Ask anyone why they send their kids to any independent school and you'll get back bollocks. I particularly like the "oh, but I'm freeing up resources in the State sector" bollocks. What they really mean is that they a) don't want their kids going to school with oiks and b) they'll make jolly good contacts at (insert name of posh school).
The latest "revelation" that the kids from poor backgrounds pay more for their university educations only tells part of the story. Kids fom rich backgrounds have their fees paid by pater and then go into well paid jobs. Kids from poor backgrounds are saddled with debt for life and are lucky to get a job where they can afford to pay it.
The system is ****. Eton is a shining example of how ****, but is not alone.
I want to remain but could never vote for Corbyn. His view of the economy would destroy what’s left of it after Brexit
If there is a general election and the Tories win they will still be a divided party unable to reach an agreed decision. If Labour get in they will be united but you will not like their decisions. We are all ****ed thanks to Cameron, Gove and Johnson. This whole mess has nothing to do with Europe but is all about power and the Tories. Their self interest risks causing untold damage to our economy.
Well of course one of the advantages of sending your little darlings to Eton is that they will help you with your tax payments so that you can more easily afford the £66,540 per annum fees:
https://www.schoolfeestaxplanning.c..._icaFuoghIli3tf91U4tA1M7sZRKVizxoCTtYQAvD_BwE
I think I've said previously........Brexit should never have been a single party negotiation..............There is no doubt the EU were not going to make it easy for us to leave. As I've said before there are a few countries that are not exactly happy about the way the EU is going. When the referendum was held the result was cross party.........I was surprised firstly that we had a general election and then a one party negotiating team!! Although having said that the MPs themselves don't seem to know what they want !!!.......I wouldn't want to be an MP that's for sure!!
The problem is, there is no deal available to us that will better than what we currently have. This is why no one can agree.
It’s like asking politicians to pick which poison they want to drink.
It’s like asking politicians to pick which poison they want to drink.
I quite like your last point. Like thousands of others from either side of the argument, I'm pretty disappointed in the performance of our Government and the body of MP's in the House of Commons, but listening to some of the MP's on local radio today, I get the feeling they've had a more than difficult job in fully reflecting the many differing opinions that bombard their mailbox over this issue. Yes, the vote was to leave and we should find a way of delivering that, otherwise what was the point of the first referendum? Holding a second one will not solve this problem for two reasons as I see it. One, is that what happens if the vote, as is likely, is as close again, either way, two, why on earth should the public trust Parliament to 'follow the wishes of the people' of a second vote? They clearly have a hard time coming up with a solution to the first vote and so far have failed that test. So despite the mess and despite my original wish to remain, the MP's and the Government together, need to work through, perhaps with less noise to the baying media driven public and come to a decision as to how best to proceed from here.
It also may be a time when we have a period of reflection on how we discuss and treat all those with differing views with perhaps a touch more sensitivity and humanity, I see far too much by way of trying to pulverise with words (by both sides) and somehow browbeat 'the others' into a form of submission. I understand that for many this may seem a weak or timid view in the face of a difficut crisis, but if everybody just keeps digging with so much fury and in some cases a total lack of respect for the views of others, the hole we're already in, simply gets deeper. I'd like to see a different way which starts to build bridges and takes us forward to a state of greater understanding and tolerance. To that end I will be attending meetings and events where such a search can begin, our MP's need help here and as voters I believe we can talk with them and listen to others. We may not like all or some of them but they are the ones who have been 'given' the task to sort this out.
You answered your own question. A second referendum would allow them to reflect these views. they wont be able to deliver on Brexit without getting public support behind a plan.
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That’s a bit unfair on MP’s in general, if I may say. The catastrophic mess that has been made of the Brexit negotiations isn’t the fault of MP’s in general, it’s the fault of the determined tunnel vision of the Prime Minister. Having lost her majority in 2017, in order to deliver Brexit she should immediately have formed a cross-party forum to thrash out an approach to the negotiations that would have delivered a deal acceptable to the majority of the house. Instead she boxed herself in with red lines which made an acceptable deal impossible.
It would never had made a majority, as its not a two way split. Would have been more even though.
It is a much better strategy than what they have carried out though!
I genuinely don’t think brexit will happen at this point. Parliament seem to agree that no-deal isn’t an option, but can’t agree on anything besides that.
Corbyn doesn’t want to remain. He wants out ..... which is why the country won’t vote him in. We need a properly social caring government who would actually do what the majority of people want and not listen to those crazy right and left wing extremists who seem to have got hold of parliament now ......
Corbyn is in an extremely difficult position, trying to keep all Labour voters onside.
I might be wrong but I think there were one heck of a lot of areas, that are traditionally Labour, that voted to leave.
Now he has to contend with pretty much all Labour held seats wanting a second referendum, with there being more than a hint that many would switch to remain, depending on what you read.
He has openly said that he would respect the referendum result, but would, for one, renegotiate a customs union deal - Turkey I believe, have access to the customs union but aren’t part of the EU, so that part should be possible and would help maintain trade and movement of goods. You would think that the Tories, being the self proclaimed party for business, would have considered that option.
Corbyn’s biggest obstacle, with regards to being elected, IMO, isn’t his stance on the EU, it’s the media and it’s unrelenting attack on someone who wants more equality and fairness in this country.
We always get the Government that gets the best media support, which is primarily Conservative.
In the 90s, when Murdoch switched camps, and used his papers to support Blair, Labour had a landslide victory. In the noughties he switched back, iirc, and the Cons got back in, based on their lies about Labour causing the global recession, or such like.
But this is the problem. The majority of people actually wanted to leave, hence the result of the vote yet ever since the vote it has been presented as the majority of people not wanting the vote and those MPs that want the vote fulfilled are presented as rebels when it is those that are trying to go against their own manifestos that are actually rebels.
Corbyn wants to leave. He is supporting his party's manifesto from the last election. The ERG want to leave. They are supporting their party's manifesto from the last election. They are not the ones that are rebels.
We can argue about some of the ERG wanting WTO (Most don't) but the reality is that your statement above contradicts itself because those who would be seen as "crazy right and left wing extremists" ARE the ones that want to do what they majority of people want.......at least on the issue of Brexit anyway.
It is the infighting within the house from all sides trying to present everything they say as meaning something it doesn't that has caused this. Yes Theresa May's closed shop has caused even more problems but it is the whole house that has been ignoring reality and trying to spin their own narratives that has put us into a gridlock position.
It's no good continually prefixing a statement with "We respect the referendum but......." and then moving into a spun version of how to avoid Brexit even if it is a BRINO version. Similarly it is no good some of the ERG saying they "want a deal but" when they wanted a WTO from the start. The reality is however that most in there have never respected the result, have never had any intention of working positively to deliver any kind of actual Brexit and have merely been spinning while they work out how to ignore the referendum result. They are all to blame.
Even now we have a large section saying they want to extend article 50 so that we can work out a way forward. They aren't bothered about having more time to work out how to deliver Brexit. They might say that but the reality is they want more time to work towards ignoring the result. I'm pretty sure article 50 will be extended. I;ve said it enough times but nothing will change. No-one in there is the slightest bit interested in actually delivering Brexit with a deal that satisfies.
The media (and politicians repeating on masse) have spent the last few months pushing the line that people are "tired of Brexit and just want it to be over." They are tired of Brexit but the way it is spun is that people have had enough and are saying "we give up, lets stay." They aren't tired of Brexit itself, just the constant manouevering by all involved. The zero progress by people that keep blaming each other. What we are tired of is being ignored and the "system" pretending it is trying to achieve something when they aren't.
The media and political classes then spent the last month (especially around the no confidence vote in May) telling us what the public think, that they will blame the ERG for this mess and not May. Well the polling that came out last night clearly showed that 49% do indeed blame May and the government with backbenchers on both sides being blamed in the teen percents. Most people could have predicted that yet all of those on propaganda missions across TV kept on telling the viewers that people didn't blame May at all and were disgusted with the ERG. They even searched and searched for people on the streets that would support this view.
The blame should lie with the whole house and their machinations of how not to deliver what people voted for. Yes the government should shoulder most of it because it is they that are in control and thus the inactivity is all on their shoulders however the house itself has spent 2 years trying its best to make sure that nothing is possible.
Most of the public support (which isn't a majority but is now significant) wanted a real deal not the usual EU stitchup presented as a deal and far from being WTO supporters their view is "just get out, this has gone on too long. There's no point taking any longer because nothing will change. Just get out and then get on with life." Far from being supportive from the start about WTO they are just tired of the bubble's spin and fakery and want to just get it over with and move on.
I can't see us avoiding a referendum now. I said months ago the EU would only grant an extension if we offered something and I suggested it would be a 2nd referendum. We all know how the EU loves a 2nd referendum
and today that is confirmed by the leaders of the EU countries, that "the UK" must be showing there is a path forward for them to agree to an extension. This was always on the cards from the day the result went "the wrong way."Parliament stalls and stalls, The EU give the worst deal possible, the politicians make sure that no progress can ever be made while they and the dominant screen media pump anti-Brexit propaganda into everybody's minds until they are repeating that propaganda in their sleep.
I think WTO would be a really bad option. I wanted a decent deal but WTO vs remaining in that globalist scam? My X would go next to WTO!!! And that is pretty much the sentiment of a lot of the leave vote that wanted a deal. Never wanted a WTO exit but would rather that then remain part of the EU project.
Its a pity that the leave camp downed tools thinking that winning a vote was the end of it because they have left the continuity remain side to dominate the airwaves and the screentime. How naive it is that people thought in a modern democratic country that winning a vote was what counted. They should have known that winning a vote means nothing. It is forcing that vote to be honoured that is the battle.
The only difference between modern democracy and 3rd world democracy is that there they rig the result to be what they want. In Western democracies they don;t rig the vote. They just ignore it afterwards.
What you say may be true but another obstacle is that he's rapidly losing the support membership of his party over his stance on the EU. He needs a supportive party to campaign.
Additionally, I'm not sure a leadership contest is out of the question with such a huge majority inside the party against him on this defining subject. I'm not saying a contest would lead to his defenestration but the mood may tempt someone to have a punt against him.
Vin
Spot on in every regard. Corbyn knows that trying to get the media onside is a waste of time, which is why Labour place such high importance on social media nowadays. On policy, I think that following the party conference he has essentially taken things in the order specified by the conference. At last he has had a chance to put a No Confidence motion, knowing it will fail but that doing so allows him to gently bring the second referendum into play.
Watching the debate on the No Confidence motion it’s interesting that apart, obviously, from Labour members, every single person has attacked Corbyn more than May, even though she was responsible only yesterday for the greatest defeat in parliamentary history. The Tories are coming out with the usual claptrap about links to terrorists and anti-semitism and blaming the Brown government for everything they have failed to do in nearly 9 years.
Corbyn has a majority of Labour members behind him, even though many MP’s don’t like him.