Off Topic UK / EU Future

[Scullion]

Er.....what rights have been taken away by the EU ?

National sovereignty, control over our laws and judiciary, control of our borders, control over our trade, control over our territorial waters and a democratic right to influence EU policy because the EU Parliament is powerless to control the EU bureaucrats and their regulations.

 

[superhorns]

National sovereignty, control over our laws and judiciary, control of our borders, control over our trade, control over our territorial waters and a democratic right to influence EU policy because the EU Parliament is powerless to control the EU bureaucrats and their regulations.

The clique will be sending their letters of complaint in if you keep this up

 

[colognehornet]

National sovereignty, control over our laws and judiciary, control of our borders, control over our trade, control over our territorial waters and a democratic right to influence EU policy because the EU Parliament is powerless to control the EU bureaucrats and their regulations.

Complete national sovereignty is a thing of the past, and in going cap in hand to the rest of the World looking for trade deals with the likes of Trump we would have precious little of it left, as things stand we have a pooled sovereignty with the rest of the EU. which is far better protection. As for laws - 95% of all EU. laws were agreed by the British (higher percentage than any other country) - strangely not one Brexiter has been able to show me one EU. law which has inconvenienced their lives. We have control over our borders anyway. All actions taken by the EU Commission are subject to ratification by the EU. Parliament (which includes our MEPs sitting there - in fact the EU Parliament could replace the Commission if they chose to. So, not much left is there ? Besides which most of these so called 'lost rights' would be of little importance to an 18 year old. The young are not interested in throwing up borders separating the World, they are interested in coming together, looking for collective solutions. I am afraid that the idea of national sovereignty means little to them - why 'national', it could just as easily by regional, based on your town, on your circle of friends and neighbours, your religion, your economic peer group, any one of these could claim my loyalties more than the 'nation' state - which, for most people, is an abstract concept anyway.

 

[colognehornet]

Why do Brexiteers have so many problems coping with the idea of pooled sovereignty ? The nation state is, in itself, a result of 'pooled sovereignty'. Sovereignty begins with the individual - which he then pools with others in order to have rights better protected - whether this is simply pooling with my immediate neighbours ie. a commune, or a city, or region, or what we call the nation state - why should it end at that level ? I take comfort from being in the EU. in as much as it prevents an uncomfortable concentration of powers in Westminster. Brexiteers can waffle on about the 'will of the people' - is it the true expression of the people's will that a party can claim an absolute majority based on only about 36-37% of the votes - so that over 60% of people wake up after every election saying 'I didn't vote for this' - where, in fact, the majority are always against the Government. The lack of PR makes us the only one party state in Europe - couple that with the fact that Britain is one of the most centralized states in the Western World, without any real balance of powers - not states, as in Germany, nothing other than a house of lords which can only block for a limited time. The return of powers from Brussels could become a nightmare if those returned powers end up in Westminster - the concentration of powers then would resemble a dictatorship. If those returning powers have the effect of strengthening regional government in the UK. then ok. but this is more the Corbynite form of Brexit. I fear for a Tory led Brexit because it will initiate a race to the bottom, in order to make us attractive to all those foreign investors - a race initiated by those very same people who moan about British Sovereignty.

 

[Tobes]

The problem is many youngsters are completely unaware of the sacrifices by millions to avoid domination by some Europeans.

There’s Brexit in a sentence ^

The elderly unable to separate the EU from Ze War, and the thought that it somehow creates oppression for a Nation that was at the core of its decision making. Whilst the young merely see us being part of Europe and the find the idea that we’re somehow part of some cunning German masterplan to take over control of the continent by stealth as errrmm bonkers.

 

[yorkshirehornet]

Why do Brexiteers have so many problems coping with the idea of pooled sovereignty ? The nation state is, in itself, a result of 'pooled sovereignty'. Sovereignty begins with the individual - which he then pools with others in order to have rights better protected - whether this is simply pooling with my immediate neighbours ie. a commune, or a city, or region, or what we call the nation state - why should it end at that level ? I take comfort from being in the EU. in as much as it prevents an uncomfortable concentration of powers in Westminster. Brexiteers can waffle on about the 'will of the people' - is it the true expression of the people's will that a party can claim an absolute majority based on only about 36-37% of the votes - so that over 60% of people wake up after every election saying 'I didn't vote for this' - where, in fact, the majority are always against the Government. The lack of PR makes us the only one party state in Europe - couple that with the fact that Britain is one of the most centralized states in the Western World, without any real balance of powers - not states, as in Germany, nothing other than a house of lords which can only block for a limited time. The return of powers from Brussels could become a nightmare if those returned powers end up in Westminster - the concentration of powers then would resemble a dictatorship. If those returning powers have the effect of strengthening regional government in the UK. then ok. but this is more the Corbynite form of Brexit. I fear for a Tory led Brexit because it will initiate a race to the bottom, in order to make us attractive to all those foreign investors - a race initiated by those very same people who moan about British Sovereignty.

Interesting paradox.... For me it is something about both history and size.

Some cannot get over the historical differences , the wars etc.
For others the unit is too big and alienating...… the people 'over there' have all the power.

Given the Kingdom is riven with national and regional disunity... it is more likely that Brexit will hasten the rush towards further splitting.

 

[colognehornet]

Interesting paradox.... For me it is something about both history and size.

Some cannot get over the historical differences , the wars etc.
For others the unit is too big and alienating...… the people 'over there' have all the power.

Given the Kingdom is riven with national and regional disunity... it is more likely that Brexit will hasten the rush towards further splitting.

I would imagine that most people want their laws to be made as close to them as possible Yorkie. Preferably, me agreeing a set of rules with my immediate neighbours as to how we live together - how big that sovereign unit becomes is arbitrary - the larger it becomes the less influence the individual has, but the larger the unit is the more protection it can guarantee. For some reason most Brexiteers rave on about recovering sovereignty as if it were the most natural thing in the World - as if it naturally belongs at the national level. If Somerset were to suddenly declare that it wants all its laws made in Taunton, then the same people would split their sides laughing, but why ?

 

[superhorns]

[QUOTE="colognehornet, post: 12405137, member: 1012323"]I would imagine that most people want their laws to be made as close to them as possible Yorkie. Preferably, me agreeing a set of rules with my immediate neighbours as to how we live together - how big that sovereign unit becomes is arbitrary - the larger it becomes the less influence the individual has, but the larger the unit is the more protection it can guarantee. For some reason most Brexiteers rave on about recovering sovereignty as if it were the most natural thing in the World - as if it naturally belongs at the national level. If Somerset were to suddenly declare that it wants all its laws made in Taunton, then the same people would split their sides laughing, but why ?[/QUOTE]

For most people it does belong at the national level. It was the most natural thing in the world to want our national government to be sovereign. This after all is the default position around the world. The EU is the odd one out.

 

[colognehornet]

[QUOTE="colognehornet, post: 12405137, member: 1012323"]I would imagine that most people want their laws to be made as close to them as possible Yorkie. Preferably, me agreeing a set of rules with my immediate neighbours as to how we live together - how big that sovereign unit becomes is arbitrary - the larger it becomes the less influence the individual has, but the larger the unit is the more protection it can guarantee. For some reason most Brexiteers rave on about recovering sovereignty as if it were the most natural thing in the World - as if it naturally belongs at the national level. If Somerset were to suddenly declare that it wants all its laws made in Taunton, then the same people would split their sides laughing, but why ?

For most people it does belong at the national level. It was the most natural thing in the world to want our national government to be sovereign. This after all is the default position around the world. The EU is the odd one out.[/QUOTE]
How do you know what it means for most people SH ? The 'nation state' does not have a unique quality which overides every other possible unit of sovereignty. Actually the 'nation state' is a relatively new thing historically speaking, and is, in many cases arbitrary. This may be different for an island, but, situated where I am we are 5 hours train journey from Berlin, 4 from Hamburg and just a bit more from Munich - yet only one hour from Liege, and 2 hours from both Brussels and Amsterdam. So maybe we feel more cultural, and historic connections to Liege than to Berlin. The same may be true in the UK. do Geordies feel more connection to the Scots than to London ? The only 'natural' unit of sovereignty is the individual - every other one is a matter of choice.

 

[superhorns]

For most people it does belong at the national level. It was the most natural thing in the world to want our national government to be sovereign. This after all is the default position around the world. The EU is the odd one out.

How do you know what it means for most people SH ? The 'nation state' does not have a unique quality which overides every other possible unit of sovereignty. Actually the 'nation state' is a relatively new thing historically speaking, and is, in many cases arbitrary. This may be different for an island, but, situated where I am we are 5 hours train journey from Berlin, 4 from Hamburg and just a bit more from Munich - yet only one hour from Liege, and 2 hours from both Brussels and Amsterdam. So maybe we feel more cultural, and historic connections to Liege than to Berlin. The same may be true in the UK. do Geordies feel more connection to the Scots than to London ? The only 'natural' unit of sovereignty is the individual - every other one is a matter of choice.[/QUOTE]

I was talking about the UK not Germany. Apart from immigration the other main reason why so many bothered to vote in the referendum was sovereignty. The national state does have a unique quality that overrides every other unit of sovereignty except the one you picked out, oneself and family.

The Geordies, Brummies, Devonians, etc. feel more connected to the UK, or England, than any other region, certainly not Brussels.

 

[colognehornet]

How do you know what it means for most people SH ? The 'nation state' does not have a unique quality which overides every other possible unit of sovereignty. Actually the 'nation state' is a relatively new thing historically speaking, and is, in many cases arbitrary. This may be different for an island, but, situated where I am we are 5 hours train journey from Berlin, 4 from Hamburg and just a bit more from Munich - yet only one hour from Liege, and 2 hours from both Brussels and Amsterdam. So maybe we feel more cultural, and historic connections to Liege than to Berlin. The same may be true in the UK. do Geordies feel more connection to the Scots than to London ? The only 'natural' unit of sovereignty is the individual - every other one is a matter of choice.

I was talking about the UK not Germany. Apart from immigration the other main reason why so many bothered to vote in the referendum was sovereignty. The national state does have a unique quality that overrides every other unit of sovereignty except the one you picked out, oneself and family.

The Geordies, Brummies, Devonians, etc. feel more connected to the UK, or England, than any other region, certainly not Brussels.[/QUOTE]
'A unique quality that overrides every other unit of sovereignty' - This ignores a thousand alternative cases SH. We are already bound by international human rights laws which are dictated by the United Nations. There is no country on this planet which is exempt from these, apart from maybe North Korea. In a globalized World countries cannot simply do what they want, whether you like it or not - they are all bound by trade agreements, human rights laws, environmental laws etc. Other sources of authority may also be religious - which, for religious people, would have priority over the laws of the state where they live. You speak as if the nation state were the number one focus of loyalty for every individual, which ignores every other.

 

[superhorns]

I was talking about the UK not Germany. Apart from immigration the other main reason why so many bothered to vote in the referendum was sovereignty. The national state does have a unique quality that overrides every other unit of sovereignty except the one you picked out, oneself and family.

The Geordies, Brummies, Devonians, etc. feel more connected to the UK, or England, than any other region, certainly not Brussels.

'A unique quality that overrides every other unit of sovereignty' - This ignores a thousand alternative cases SH. We are already bound by international human rights laws which are dictated by the United Nations. There is no country on this planet which is exempt from these, apart from maybe North Korea. In a globalized World countries cannot simply do what they want, whether you like it or not - they are all bound by trade agreements, human rights laws, environmental laws etc. Other sources of authority may also be religious - which, for religious people, would have priority over the laws of the state where they live. You speak as if the nation state were the number one focus of loyalty for every individual, which ignores every other.[/QUOTE]

No, I think the nation state, apart from one's own family, is the number one focus of loyalty for the overwhelming number of Brits. There are always a few oddballs that think otherwise.

 

[colognehornet]

'A unique quality that overrides every other unit of sovereignty' - This ignores a thousand alternative cases SH. We are already bound by international human rights laws which are dictated by the United Nations. There is no country on this planet which is exempt from these, apart from maybe North Korea. In a globalized World countries cannot simply do what they want, whether you like it or not - they are all bound by trade agreements, human rights laws, environmental laws etc. Other sources of authority may also be religious - which, for religious people, would have priority over the laws of the state where they live. You speak as if the nation state were the number one focus of loyalty for every individual, which ignores every other.

No, I think the nation state, apart from one's own family, is the number one focus of loyalty for the overwhelming number of Brits. There are always a few oddballs that think otherwise.[/QUOTE]

This is opinion SH. not fact, and has not been subject to empirical testing. There is a correlation between voting behaviour (and the Brexit/Remain choice) and those identifying themselves as belonging to different religious groupings. Those most likely to vote for Brexit were either Church of England or Jewish, whereas the groups vearing towards Remain were Catholic, Islamic, Hindu and other Christian sects such as Methodist, Baptist and Quaker. How do you explain that ? For a Catholic his number one source of loyalty is the Vatican ie. Rome. In fact all religious groups would have split loyalties, apart from maybe Anglican. If this is true for religious groups it is also true for others.

 

[superhorns]

No, I think the nation state, apart from one's own family, is the number one focus of loyalty for the overwhelming number of Brits. There are always a few oddballs that think otherwise.

This is opinion SH. not fact, and has not been subject to empirical testing. There is a correlation between voting behaviour (and the Brexit/Remain choice) and those identifying themselves as belonging to different religious groupings. Those most likely to vote for Brexit were either Church of England or Jewish, whereas the groups vearing towards Remain were Catholic, Islamic, Hindu and other Christian sects such as Methodist, Baptist and Quaker. How do you explain that ? For a Catholic his number one source of loyalty is the Vatican ie. Rome. In fact all religious groups would have split loyalties, apart from maybe Anglican. If this is true for religious groups it is also true for others.[/QUOTE]

It was simply my opinion which is why I said 'I think'.

Merry xmas all.

 

[Scullion]

It is nice to see you all "playing nicely" now

May EU all have a Merry Christmas

 

[colognehornet]

This is opinion SH. not fact, and has not been subject to empirical testing. There is a correlation between voting behaviour (and the Brexit/Remain choice) and those identifying themselves as belonging to different religious groupings. Those most likely to vote for Brexit were either Church of England or Jewish, whereas the groups vearing towards Remain were Catholic, Islamic, Hindu and other Christian sects such as Methodist, Baptist and Quaker. How do you explain that ? For a Catholic his number one source of loyalty is the Vatican ie. Rome. In fact all religious groups would have split loyalties, apart from maybe Anglican. If this is true for religious groups it is also true for others.

It was simply my opinion which is why I said 'I think'.

Merry xmas all. [/QUOTE]

It is nice to see you all "playing nicely" now

May EU all have a Merry Christmas

Have a great Christmas Scully, and all on here, be they Tory, Brexiteer or what -

 

[Deleted.......]

This is opinion SH. not fact, and has not been subject to empirical testing. There is a correlation between voting behaviour (and the Brexit/Remain choice) and those identifying themselves as belonging to different religious groupings. Those most likely to vote for Brexit were either Church of England or Jewish, whereas the groups vearing towards Remain were Catholic, Islamic, Hindu and other Christian sects such as M

No, I think the nation state, apart from one's own family, is the number one focus of loyalty for the overwhelming number of Brits. There are always a few oddballs that think otherwise.

This is opinion SH. not fact, and has not been subject to empirical testing. There is a correlation between voting behaviour (and the Brexit/Remain choice) and those identifying themselves as belonging to different religious groupings. Those most likely to vote for Brexit were either Church of England or Jewish, whereas the groups vearing towards Remain were Catholic, Islamic, Hindu and other Christian sects such as Methodist, Baptist and Quaker. How do you explain that ? For a Catholic his number one source of loyalty is the Vatican ie. Rome. In fact all religious groups would have split loyalties, apart from maybe Anglican. If this is true for religious groups it is also true for others.[/QUOTE]
I'm assuming you didn't carry out this research personally so I'm not really having a go at you but a few observations:
1) I don't really care for these studies as they can prove divisive and, as a practicing catholic I object to being out in a box in this manner
2) I reckon most Catholics in Britain these days couldn't give a monkeys about the Vatican and are more focussed on their local parish
3) I'd say around 75% of my family and friends are Catholics. I reckon our voting was 50/50 - perhaps a bit more towards Brexit but very little in it.
4) I reckon the assumption on Catholics is based on all the Irish voting remain ( which I was banking on). It didn't happen as shedloads voted out.
5) in terms of people I know the most accurate barometer for how they voted is jobs. So pretty much all those who own their own businesses or have a trade voted out. The contractors and site managers voted remain as did the public sevants. And superhorns can have a ball with that one.

In keeping with recent posts, merry Christmas to all

 

[colognehornet]

This is opinion SH. not fact, and has not been subject to empirical testing. There is a correlation between voting behaviour (and the Brexit/Remain choice) and those identifying themselves as belonging to different religious groupings. Those most likely to vote for Brexit were either Church of England or Jewish, whereas the groups vearing towards Remain were Catholic, Islamic, Hindu and other Christian sects such as Methodist, Baptist and Quaker. How do you explain that ? For a Catholic his number one source of loyalty is the Vatican ie. Rome. In fact all religious groups would have split loyalties, apart from maybe Anglican. If this is true for religious groups it is also true for others.

I'm assuming you didn't carry out this research personally so I'm not really having a go at you but a few observations:
1) I don't really care for these studies as they can prove divisive and, as a practicing catholic I object to being out in a box in this manner
2) I reckon most Catholics in Britain these days couldn't give a monkeys about the Vatican and are more focussed on their local parish
3) I'd say around 75% of my family and friends are Catholics. I reckon our voting was 50/50 - perhaps a bit more towards Brexit but very little in it.
4) I reckon the assumption on Catholics is based on all the Irish voting remain ( which I was banking on). It didn't happen as shedloads voted out.
5) in terms of people I know the most accurate barometer for how they voted is jobs. So pretty much all those who own their own businesses or have a trade voted out. The contractors and site managers voted remain as did the public sevants. And superhorns can have a ball with that one.

In keeping with recent posts, merry Christmas to all [/QUOTE]
Nobody is putting you in a box Dan, but there is a correlation between voting behaviour and political choice in the UK. which I have produced the figures for in a previous post (albeit a long time ago), with Anglicans being, by far, the most Tory and the most pro Brexit.
But, keeping with the theme, Christmas is a time to put differences aside

 

[kchorn]

It does seem that here all the posters are fixed and entrenched in their positions. But if we assume a hard Brexit will happen in 3 months what do you think will happen in the EU?

I offer a view from where I am. I’m in Spain where unemployment is for the young 30% and in total 17%. Pay for the majority is very poor, tax is higher than the UK, and there are no state benefits.

If the UK suffers say a 10% increase in unemployment, thus 14%, and after 18 months is surviving and has several new trade deals in the pipe line - despite what might be seen in the UK as pain - will be seen here as the success of exiting the EU.

The people I talk to here are under no illusion that a hard Brexit will be bad for them. Expats heading home (the majority retired who simply spend UK money here), having to compete on a level playing field with Morocco (just one of many examples) with regard to agricultural products. Less money in the EU to fund Spanish infrastructure projects. Loss of ability to work in the UK.

So, the Spanish will see Spexit looking very attractive even if those in the UK think things look bad. And the right-wing nationalists are already on the move here having gained regional government seats in the last election and increasing their support across the country in the polls. Not to mention the Catalan problem.

And despite the Spanish traditionally being not to effective at taking to the streets, now the French have demonstrated that violent protest can get results, I think times have changed. Already the pacifist Catalans have supporters demanding force be used.

And of course Sweden have just demonstrated one potential route out of the Euro.

Whether you think Brexit is good or bad do you think the EU will be able to handle the fallout? Or do you think Germany will pay just to keep the ship afloat? And for how long will they pay? And at what point will they look to the UK as an attractive free trade opportunity?

If in doubt that not is all plain sailing in the EU have a look at the stats for the Republic of Ireland before any hard Brexit fallout. It isn’t a matter of if a bailout is required but when.

Interested in any thoughts based on evidence.

And a very happy festive season to you all.

 

[hornethologist a.k.a. theo]

Past studies have shown (1) very high correlation between the size of children's feet and their intelligence (2) very high correlation between the length of railway track in the countries of Europe and the incidence of sexually transmitted diseases. Correlation doesn't mean causation. Just saying