Off Topic Politics Thread

[Osvaldorama]

The argument utilising the "enabling" is the disingenuous part. We should be stamping on those doing this stuff but the argument about never doing anything because "it enables" is just a tool to try and stop things you don't like happening.

Prosecute these people if they commit crimes. Does not in any way mean that we should not change something because some idiots are "enabled."

should we stop Corbyn from being allowed to lead the Labour party because it is "enabling" antifa types and others that spit at Tories and shout Tory scum at them while in their faces?

No, no hate should be allowed. But Brexit is partly responsible for allowing racists and xenophobes to believe their views are okay.

It’s isolationist and divisive, as proven by the crime stats rising.

It’s yet ANOTHER large negative of Brexit - still yet to hear of any guaranteed positives worth all of this!

 

[ImpSaint]

Imps, your rent is due for this thread.

How long have you been living here for?

Seems like forever but then it's me the lone voice against the rest. So whilst I may have the highest individual post count in the thread it is still the lone voice outnumbered 3:1 (or higher?)

I have to stand up for the majority against the vast hordes of the minority

 

[ImpSaint]

No, no hate should be allowed. But Brexit is partly responsible for allowing racists and xenophobes to believe their views are okay.

It’s isolationist and divisive, as proven by the crime stats rising.

It’s yet ANOTHER large negative of Brexit - still yet to hear of any guaranteed positives worth all of this!

So you think if anything (positive or not) might cause a few nutcases to cause people harm or hurt it should be avoided.......and in the last few pages Brexit has been described as a religion (somewhere, maybe further back than a few so don't take it literally.) So we are now deciding if anything.....like a religion causes (or enables) a few nutcases to cause people harm or hurt........then it shouldn't be allowed?

This all sounds like a way of eradicating thought or ideas that veer off the "correct" path to me.

And I thought crime stats rising was all to do with austerity and police cuts? Fair enough, they are due to Brexit so we can stop moaning about police cuts now.

 

[----HistoryRepeating----]

Problem is, there's no right or wrong.

Leaving the trade agreement could have been a good thing. But with the weak leadership we have, it won't be. So both sides have valid points.

 

[SaintinSerbia]

and others that spit at Tories and shout Tory scum at them while in their faces?

you did this one, what? a year maybe 2 years ago? keep it up to date Imps! You've probably got a video to back this up recorded in 2005 in Rotterdam! (P.S. I have no problem with shouting the truth but I really hate spitting)

 

[VocalMinority]

Thats how our laws work Imps. its why we don't let religious extremists into the country and hate groups are banned.

 

[ImpSaint]

Problem is, there's no right or wrong.

Leaving the trade agreement could have been a good thing. But with the weak leadership we have, it won't be. So both sides have valid points.

We agree. Any change requires belief and positivity, yes some caution. What we got (still have) is leadership that never had that belief or positivity, always treated it as damage limitation and 2 warring sides determined to make sure that their arguments became self fulfilling to blame the failure on t'other side.

 

[----HistoryRepeating----]

Amen brother.

 

[ImpSaint]

Thats how our laws work Imps. its why we don't let religious extremists into the country and hate groups are banned.

So we already have the laws to deal with the "enabled" What is being suggested is that the religion of Brexit is to be blamed for these enabled nutters but other religions are not to blame for enabling nutters proclaiming to be fighting for that religion.....

........and I am playing devil's advocate. I do not believe that Brexit is a religion or like a religion. That is the suggestion of others.

 

[----HistoryRepeating----]

I have a new subject. (Discreet break from Brexitism)

How on earth is Donny Trump still in office?
Presidential inauguration has come under federal criminal investigation. It seems they've just been spending it on........things!
Trump National Security Adviser Michael Flynn......Going to jail
Michael Cohen, the president's former personal lawyer.....Going to jail
There's evidence that Russia were involved in the election campaign
Personal business benefiting while in office, jobs for family who seem as dodgy as him.
Hush money for hookers (catchy name for a pub)
I'm sure I've missed a few other things as well.
Panned out like we all thought.....just took a bit longer!

 

[Onionman]

comments on threads..........versus direct action. Hmmm.

I have seen literally no evidence of any direct action by Remainers*. I'd be interested to see some evidence of it so I can judge properly.

Vin

* barring one very pleasant, peaceful, good-humoured and good-natured march by over half a million of us to ask for a say on the final deal once the Tories work out what they want.

 

[Onionman]

I have a new subject. (Discreet break from Brexitism)

How on earth is Donny Trump still in office?
Presidential inauguration has come under federal criminal investigation. It seems they've just been spending it on........things!
Trump National Security Adviser Michael Flynn......Going to jail
Michael Cohen, the president's former personal lawyer.....Going to jail
There's evidence that Russia were involved in the election campaign
Personal business benefiting while in office, jobs for family who seem as dodgy as him.
Hush money for hookers (catchy name for a pub)
I'm sure I've missed a few other things as well.
Panned out like we all thought.....just took a bit longer!

Two tweets that summarise the subject better than I could ever manage:

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Vin

 

[----HistoryRepeating----]

Makes watergate look like sandwich theft from a shared fridge!

 

[West Kent Saint]

So you think if anything (positive or not) might cause a few nutcases to cause people harm or hurt it should be avoided.......and in the last few pages Brexit has been described as a religion (somewhere, maybe further back than a few so don't take it literally.) So we are now deciding if anything.....like a religion causes (or enables) a few nutcases to cause people harm or hurt........then it shouldn't be allowed?

This all sounds like a way of eradicating thought or ideas that veer off the "correct" path to me.

And I thought crime stats rising was all to do with austerity and police cuts? Fair enough, they are due to Brexit so we can stop moaning about police cuts now.

Really. Perhaps you are complicating this? I think its perfectly healthy for people to find increased racism and xenophobia deeply unpleasant and disappointing. Unfortunately there appears to be a direct link to Brexit.

Obviously you are being flippant, but Crime stats rising is down to Tory austerity affecting lots of public services who are stretched and lack resources. There are other factors that contribute I'm sure, but it sure doesn't help.

 

[VocalMinority]

So we already have the laws to deal with the "enabled" What is being suggested is that the religion of Brexit is to be blamed for these enabled nutters but other religions are not to blame for enabling nutters proclaiming to be fighting for that religion.....

........and I am playing devil's advocate. I do not believe that Brexit is a religion or like a religion. That is the suggestion of others.

My theory.
Brexit encourages attacks on immigrants and minorities because leave demonized immigrants as part of its campaign and it won which consequently emboldens those who hold Ill will towards them due to feeling they are the majority. I also believe it creates more crime as i think immigrants will feel more isolated from society especially considering my first point and when somebody feels like they are not part of a society they are less likely to follow it's rules. I also believe this feeling of isolation can lead to radicalization.

 

[Onionman]

Interesting point on crime. The perception is that crime is increasing year-on-year inexorably. The reality is somewhat different.

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I've presented that graph dozens of times. I've pointed out that CSEW is a gold-standard piece of research regarded as one of the (possibly just the) best in the world. Yet many people on the right (and I'm right of centre on most polices) just refuse to believe it. I've had dozens of arguments about how it must be wrong, how it's just a survey, how the Police aren't recording crime properly (it takes no note of Police records, it's a measure of how much crime people experience).

I thing there is something seriously wrong with political debate when so many people just choose to ignore facts that disprove their preconceptions. It happens on both sides but this one's a very common one indeed.

Just thought I'd mention it. Facts matter.

Vin

 

[benditlikeabanana]

Forgive me but I have to bring up what the Mother of Parliaments has spent hours of its precious time debating today. Well it’s not as though there’s anything else going on is there? Jeremy Corbyn is accused of calling Theresa May a “stupid woman” during PMQ’s today. To put this in context, the Tory benches in their entirety were engaged in practicing for their Christmas panto, and Corbyn clearly said, under his breath and off the record, “stupid people”. Having been asked to return to the House and clarify the matter, Corbyn indeed confirmed that his words were “stupid people”. That of course didn’t satisfy the baying hounds on the government benches and “trial by points of order” went on for nearly an hour. Anyway, here’s Jezza, see what you think.

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grow a pair and own it. he clearly said stupid woman, he thinks she is stupid and she is a woman. he just looks stupid by claiming he said stupid people.

 

[ChilcoSaint]

grow a pair and own it. he clearly said stupid woman, he thinks she is stupid and she is a woman. he just looks stupid by claiming he said stupid people.

It looked like “stupid people” to me, watching it live, before anyone else suggested it, or anyone changed it to “stupid woman”. That’s said in possession of the pair I’ve always had, thank you. You can go along with the panto crowd if you want to, but I know what I saw.

 

[ImpSaint]

I have seen literally no evidence of any direct action by Remainers*. I'd be interested to see some evidence of it so I can judge properly.

Vin

* barring one very pleasant, peaceful, good-humoured and good-natured march by over half a million of us to ask for a say on the final deal once the Tories work out what they want.

There are enough hints that the military is being readied incase of a populace response to a no deal Brexit. Stories that suicides may spiral after a no deal Brexit.

Was the army not needed if we don't leave? Suicides not a problem if we don't leave?

Poster below (West Kent) saying it is disappointing and unpleasant that there is a rise in racism/xenophobia. (Vocal minority saying "Brexit encourages......"

Another comment say that there is a direct link to Brexit. direct link to Brexit? or direct link due to the nature of how the debate has been? I would quite happily concede that the way the debate has been can be directly linked. I am less inclined to believe Brexit itself is so and even if it is, that does not mean we shouldn't do something because some nutters are "enabled." I think that we can all agree that the way the debate has been conducted can be blamed for the actions of both sides of nutters.

We could have not abolished slavery, not done all sorts of things because of what might happen. Whether you believe Brexit is a good idea or not does not mean that the "enabling" argument means we shouldn't do it. It is just being used as another tool in the box.

The whole remain argument is based on money. When they talk about any human aspect it can be driven back to money. I think many people find it very hard to believe that so many in this country think there is more to life than money. Increasingly hard when the TV is turned on and everything is about doom and gloom now and for the future based on money / finance. Is it so hard to believe that large parts of this country think about more than money? It is very hard to convince anyone of any other reason for Brexit when we are talking to people that focus solely on money.

Bad things happen in the world. There are nasty people in the world. To constantly resist any change because some nutters might be "enabled" is just an excuse not to change.

Another poster talks about the "over half a million" peaceful march. I'll not go into how accurate Owen Jones' calculator is but no mention there of the numbers of counter protestors that intentionally marched side by side in the march? peacefully with no trouble? They didn't start off at different points to "intercept." They marched alongside and within peacefully. Just as they did with the "anti Trump" march.

 

[ImpSaint]

It looked like “stupid people” to me, watching it live, before anyone else suggested it, or anyone changed it to “stupid woman”. That’s said in possession of the pair I’ve always had, thank you. You can go along with the panto crowd if you want to, but I know what I saw.

I thought that earlier. I even posted on Tory forums that heh clearly makes a "p" shape. but now we've been blasted by the video because it is such an important issue I think he does say woman.

Ridiculous though that this is an issue at all. It isn't sexist. It is more a case of the left being attacked because of their own faux outrage. They have built this monster of offence and outrage. Now we are here in a position where a nothing is a big thing.