Off Topic The Politics Thread

[Deleted.......]

I think we will end up with a Canada + 20 deal. May is fighting on too many fronts. The Brexit boys will vote this latest deal down as will DUP and most Labour/SNP. It will never go back to the people as that will be a betrayal. The Tories are planning to get rid of May and bring in a Brexit leader who will go for a trade deal which most will accept. The EU will cave in a some point (Europeans normally do (business)). Germany wants a deal as do the rest of the EU so something will be sorted at the 11th hour. All this talk of second referendums/peoples votes is just fantasy. It's clutching at straws, nothing else.

As I said a long time ago, this is what will kill the EU.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/19/italy-budget-threatens-the-entire-eu-project-strategist-says.html

In fairness this is what happens when you try to keep everyone "happy". It's never going to happen and at some point she's going to have to leave a large section of society almightily pissed off. At the minute the only thing uniting this country seems to be an acknowledgement that we're all unhappy with the way this is panning out!

 

[BobbyD]

Listen 'secret remoaner', your last statement proves exactly how little you know. If you actually understood anything you would know that May is not implementing what people voted for. Leave means leave not half in.

Tbf the people voted may in who is known as a remainer. Should have voted for corbyn as everyone knows hes a hardcore brexiter.

Cant cry over what may implements when everyone knew shes a remainer

 

[ELLERS]

Yes but you voted for it!! You knew that surely???

I know exactly what I voted for. Remember Bob it wasn't me who said they didn't vote because they didn't understand?
Sadly as the German MEP said yesterday we have had 40 of entanglement and it's not easy to unravel.
This whole process has been a nightmare to sort but blaming May or the Tories is an illimformed comment. They are just one part of the problem. The EU is acting very badly and remainers cannot accept the bloody obvious. Comments from Macron in the last week have been confusing and undemocratic at best. I can see now why Hollande was more popular.
What doesn't help the process is the "enemy within", the likes of Blair/Clegg are treacherous unhelpful muppets that weaken our hand in negotiations. They just need a platform to cause trouble.... I would say two things to them WMD and tuition fees.
If people stopped moaning and supported the government we may just come out of this in tact.

 

[ELLERS]

Tbf the people voted may in who is known as a remainer. Should have voted for corbyn as everyone knows hes a hardcore brexiter.

Cant cry over what may implements when everyone knew shes a remainer

But if we had voted Corbyn all terrorists would have freedom of the city and Russians would walk up Whitehall and the Jewish community would be in trouble. Other than that he would have done a u turn

 

[BobbyD]

I know exactly what I voted for. Remember Bob it wasn't me who said they didn't vote because they didn't understand?
Sadly as the German MEP said yesterday we have had 40 of entanglement and it's not easy to unravel.
This whole process has been a nightmare to sort but blaming May or the Tories is an illimformed comment. They are just one part of the problem. The EU is acting very badly and remainers cannot accept the bloody obvious. Comments from Macron in the last week have been confusing and undemocratic at best. I can see why why Hollande was more popular.
What doesn't hep the process is the "enemy within", the likes of Blair/Clegg are treacherous unhelpful muppets that weaken our hand in negotiations. They just need a platform to cause trouble.... I would say two things to them WMD and tuition fees.
If people stopped moaning and supported the government we may just come out of this in tact.

In all honesty the EU have laid out the red lines it wants. Whether we take them or not is up to us.

I dont think they are going to change their minds. Theres a good chart about it somewhere. At the end of the day i dont blame the EU personally. We will just have to do our best if we dont like the EU deal and work towards getting other deals in place

 

[danishqp]

I know exactly what I voted for. Remember Bob it wasn't me who said they didn't vote because they didn't understand?
Sadly as the German MEP said yesterday we have had 40 of entanglement and it's not easy to unravel.
This whole process has been a nightmare to sort but blaming May or the Tories is an illimformed comment. They are just one part of the problem. The EU is acting very badly and remainers cannot accept the bloody obvious. Comments from Macron in the last week have been confusing and undemocratic at best. I can see now why Hollande was more popular.
What doesn't help the process is the "enemy within", the likes of Blair/Clegg are treacherous unhelpful muppets that weaken our hand in negotiations. They just need a platform to cause trouble.... I would say two things to them WMD and tuition fees.
If people stopped moaning and supported the government we may just come out of this in tact.

Respect your position Ellers - honestly I do, as with all others that have understood the majority of vagaries within this massively complex deal, call it what you will.
However, I am generally interested in how you think the EU should have "behaved" in all this.
Many, on all sides, keep saying that their behaving or acting in a bad/unfair manner.
With a reflective mindset, how do you think they should have behaved once the result was in?
Not before, as they took the absolute piss out of Cameron (which he allowed), but afterwards.
I'm not sure the UK ever found out how to play the game with the EU, there are plenty, plenty of member states that have played it as they have so wished.
Denmark for example is continuously up before the beak for one transgression or another, they are actively doing what is good for their country from within.
The UK seems to have played (admirably so), by "Queensbury rules".

But, back to the direct question to you Ellers - How should the EU have behaved in all this, once the ballot results were in?
Thanks in advance for your considered reply.
Afterwards, back to the shed
And no whaking off in there!!

 

[ELLERS]

In all honesty the EU have laid out the red lines it wants. Whether we take them or not is up to us.

Sadly those red lines change and other countries in the EU have different rules and regulations. They make up rules to suit. With us they have just laid down some generic set of rules which they know will cause problems. This thing with the backstop is just a way to stop us leaving. It pure BS and they know it.
Throughout this whole process I have learned one important thing and that is the EU is a badly run organisation full of unelected muppets who will never change and are only interested in lining the pickets of the Germans followed by the French. When we leave we will look back and say why did it take so long. That is of course if we fully leave.

 

[ELLERS]

Respect your position Ellers - honestly I do, as with all others that have understood the majority of vagaries within this massively complex deal, call it what you will.
However, I am generally interested in how you think the EU should have "behaved" in all this.
Many, on all sides, keep saying that their behaving or acting in a bad/unfair manner.
With a reflective mindset, how do you think they should have behaved once the result was in?
Not before, as they took the absolute piss out of Cameron (which he allowed), but afterwards.
I'm not sure the UK ever found out how to play the game with the EU, there are plenty, plenty of member states that have played it as they have so wished.
Denmark for example is continuously up before the beak for one transgression or another, they are actively doing what is good for their country from within.
The UK seems to have played (admirably so), by "Queensbury rules".

But, back to the direct question to you Ellers - How should the EU have behaved in all this, once the ballot results were in?
Thanks in advance for your considered reply.
Afterwards, back to the shed
And no whaking off in there!!

Sadly on Mobile now so will try my best with my poor eyesight .

Well agree they took the p out of Cameron and also us over the years when we wanted to implement things. Rememember the Uk put forward 21 things and all were rejected.
Regarding their posisition.... It's a position of fear. They are losing their biggest net contributor. As the German minister said 2 days ago it's like losing 19 of the EU countries in one hit.
I expect the UK to be treated with respect. It upsets me that most EU counties contribute as much as Bracknell collectively. It's full of Mickey Mouse countries that are all very disrectful about us leaving. They are all hiding behind France and Germany.
But forget all that...
When you are trying to make a deal with one of the biggest World economies you try and make a deal. What you don't do is spend more time in a pub drinking wine/beer than you do talking to the leader of that nation.
All that does is irks people like me and many others. It makes moderates change their minds because we have a funny way in this country of sticking together when bullied.
The EU are playing this wrong because May will go and replaced by a hard liner. Let's see how funny it is then.

 

[bobmid]

I know exactly what I voted for. Remember Bob it wasn't me who said they didn't vote because they didn't understand?
Sadly as the German MEP said yesterday we have had 40 of entanglement and it's not easy to unravel.
This whole process has been a nightmare to sort but blaming May or the Tories is an illimformed comment. They are just one part of the problem. The EU is acting very badly and remainers cannot accept the bloody obvious. Comments from Macron in the last week have been confusing and undemocratic at best. I can see now why Hollande was more popular.
What doesn't help the process is the "enemy within", the likes of Blair/Clegg are treacherous unhelpful muppets that weaken our hand in negotiations. They just need a platform to cause trouble.... I would say two things to them WMD and tuition fees.
If people stopped moaning and supported the government we may just come out of this in tact.

So your going to stop moaning and support May now????

 

[danishqp]

Sadly on Mobile now so will try my best with my poor eyesight .

Well agree they took the p out of Cameron and also us over the years when we wanted to implement things. Rememember the Uk put forward 21 things and all were rejected.
Regarding their posisition.... It's a position of fear. They are losing their biggest net contributor. As the German minister said 2 days ago it's like losing 19 of the EU countries in one hit.
I expect the UK to be treated with respect. It upsets me that most EU counties contribute as much as Bracknell collectively. It's full of Mickey Mouse countries that are all very disrectful about us leaving. They are all hiding behind France and Germany.
But forget all that...
When you are trying to make a deal with one of the biggest World economies you try and make a deal. What you don't do is spend more time in a pub drinking wine/beer than you do talking to the leader of that nation.
All that does is irks people like me and many others. It makes moderates change their minds because we have a funny way in this country of sticking together when bullied.
The EU are playing this wrong because May will go and replaced by a hard liner. Let's see how funny it is then.

Agree to alot of that as this seems to be the position of most "major members" from my very limited exposure - certainly in terms of "smaller members" having the same voting rights.
Agree that the UK should be treated with respect - I think you'll find that this is the case amongst the individual countries - Farage/UKIP has certainly not helped matters, you may see them as the catalyst for the leave vote, but their comportment was at the very least, equally condescending and downright rude.
Making the deal - they will make a deal, that the media reports on a wine tasting/similar event is just to put the red rag in front of you - don't rise to that picture.
You say that this is making people stick together - I'm not sure mate, for me, the worst part of all this is the obvious tribalism this has created, which is far worse than left or right politics. In fact, Britain seems from the outside to be a playing an episode of Mike Reid's Runaround!!
Think the EU are playing this now about right- from their perspective, thye know how delicate the N. Ireland quetion is to the UK, they know that this is such a big Joker card in the game and are using it.
You can call it despicable, unfair, what you will - but this was known before allowing a vote and should have been sorted out before.

I'm really surprised at just how much stick May actually gets. She didn't call for this, Cameron did.
She appointed Davis as a negotiator who turned out to be as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike - yet everyone now listens to him as if he were an Oracle.
Johnson - Makes Berlusconni look statemanlike and efficient - can say no more.
A Her Majesty's opposition who have been like mad hyenas throughout - and so obviously, also lacking in moral judgment and brain capacity - note, I use the word ALSO.
Cameron should be on a stick at the Tower for all this. Michael Foot, William Hague, IDS, Hattersley or any other past buffon you care to mention would have been just so much better than this complete **** of a man.
May is boring, unattractive, lacking in vision and certainly in motivational skills of ANY kind - but does she really deserve all this stick?
I think she's useless, don't get me wrong, but no more useless than others have been before her - maybe I'm wrong.

I just don't see what the next Brexit Comandeer will look like or can achieve - and the biggest job is bringing the country together.

Thanks for the reply Ellers, even though you're on the move.

By the way - for those of you wondering why I'm on more often than usual - it's because I can't give a **** about working right now, my best friend from Lisson Grove days has just been diagnosed at the age of 51 with Stage 4 Cancer in Pancreas, Liver, and Kidneys. The boy went to live in the States 30 years ago and has lived his life training US kids to play Soccer. Never smoked, hardly drinks and fit as a fiddle - his insurance doesn't even begin to cover what's coming to him!! Immagine living in a country like that, that you have to set up a GoFundme page to see you a bit through.

The bastard's a Liverpool fan so it can't be all bad

Just joking.

 

[rangercol]

This for those that haven't yet grasped the mechanics of all this -
The democratic vote had nothing to do with democracy - Cameron allowed a binary vote of such looney proportions, simply to further his own power for a few more terms.
The vote had nothing to do about giving in to the will of the people - let's get that one out of the way.
The idiot - who should be lambasted far more than even Blair - then ran a totally incompetent and boring campaign, with no grasp of reality - simply on fear, in other words coming accross as a pompous prat saying I dare you not to do the right thing. We all know how the Brits of old - and I mean that in a positive manner - were going to react to that.
The Leave Campaign? - Come on, the buses, the Millions upon Millions of Rumanians and Syrians, take control of the borders we already have control of - in cold light of day, even the most ardent leaver will admit that people who voted due to that campoaign only, were at best misguided.

On the other side, did the EU see this coming - did they ****!!!
They were and still are over complacent, pompous aresholes who needed a damn good thumping - fully, fully agreed - a very, very strong % of Europeans feel that, not just the Brits. Was this the way to do it?

Perhap it could have beens, if there was a great set up in the UK to manage this - who could have thought that wouldn't be the case heh?

Democracy? - Don't make me laugh, where is the democracy in Big Business creaming it all off with so little trickling down?
Democracy? - Where the very, very few that make it from the "lower ranks of society" are lauded as proof that anyone can be anything!! Bullshit
Democracy? - Whereby austerity was imposed on you all for no God damn reason than to ensure the rich got richer - has austerity worked? - Did you all vote for that one?
Democracy? - Where the politicians on all sides will cjhange their "values and mantra" at a stroke if it gets them in power for 4/5 years.

You quote democracy - I'm afraid the US, UK and yes also most of Europe have long since lost the foggiest on what that is.
It's all about the ****ing money for the conglomorates, all about the overwhelming feeling of power for the politicians and for the middle to lower - in general, go **** yourselves.

Quote what you want in terms of leaving the ****, condescending EU ****s (alot of them are) in Brussels - but it ain't democracy.
Quote what you want about leaving a union of people which are your neighbours and have most in common with you on values (most of them do have) - but it aint ****ing democracy.

Go **** yourselves - Isn't that your own mantra?
An attitude that does you credit - suggest you keep to that one, leave Democracy out of this particular lark.

Ellers - Check that shed again, you know it makes sense.

Thank **** we can all rant about ****wit McccCCCCLLLLaren on Monday!!

I pretty much agree with all of that. As I've got older I've become more and more disillusioned with the way the world works and how unfair it all is.
However, I would still prefer to have our useless politicians in charge, that we can vote out, rather than unelected, corrupt councilers from the EU.

 

[danishqp]

I pretty much agree with all of that. As I've got older I've become more and more disillusioned with the way the world works and how unfair it all is.
However, I would still prefer to have our useless politicians in charge, that we can vote out, rather than unelected, corrupt councilers from the EU.

And I've got nothing but respect for that position - from the beginning you stood by your own personal stance that it may well even cost you money for this to come to pass and were willing to pay.
Sorry,here comes the however, my opinion is that your own uselless politicians are so deep in the trough in one shape or form, that it will likely hit those that can ill afford so hard, that some segments of society will take years to come back from.
We are in for an interesting next 10 years at the very least, I still believe that it won't be as good or as bad as everyone hoped or feared.

 

[KooPeeArr]

This whole process has been a nightmare to sort but blaming May or the Tories is an illimformed comment. They are just one part of the problem. The EU is acting very badly and remainers cannot accept the bloody obvious.

I'd say the problem starts and ends with the tories.

If at any point they had an agreement amongst themselves in what we were aiming for then it would have given us something to get behind (and that includes us remoaners - a decent, unified vision would have had me behind Brexit even though it wasn't my choice).

If May, Davies, Hove, BJ and JRM cannot agree a reasonable plan amongst themselves then the derailment process has started before it leaves Downing Street.

If Blair and Clegg use the chaos to forward their own agendas then it's hardly a surprise.

The EU weren't going to mediate on 2 years of Tory infighting but the fact that they are showing us pity (albeit in a self serving way) says it all - a pitiable shambles from start to finish but you don't need to look further than Tory infighting for the cause of all of this.

 

[ELLERS]

So your going to stop moaning and support May now????

You seem to be the one moaning about Brexit and the Tories...funny for someone that didn't understand you are certainly showing the opposit? Then again I think we know now.

 

[bobmid]

You seem to be the one moaning about Brexit and the Tories...funny for someone that didn't understand you are certainly showing the opposit? Then again I think we know now.

Support the government......your words not mine. How can anyone support them when they can't even support themselves! Ridiculous comment.

 

[ELLERS]

Support the government......your words not mine

And I do I support JRM/DDIDS and co.

 

[ELLERS]

I'd say the problem starts and ends with the tories.

If at any point they had an agreement amongst themselves in what we were aiming for then it would have given us something to get behind (and that includes us remoaners - a decent, unified vision would have had me behind Brexit even though it wasn't my choice).

If May, Davies, Hove, BJ and JRM cannot agree a reasonable plan amongst themselves then the derailment process has started before it leaves Downing Street.

If Blair and Clegg use the chaos to forward their own agendas then it's hardly a surprise.

The EU weren't going to mediate on 2 years of Tory infighting but the fact that they are showing us pity (albeit in a self serving way) says it all - a pitiable shambles from start to finish but you don't need to look further than Tory infighting for the cause of all of this.

You ca do much better than that. Bring something else to the table other than the usual ant Tory rhetoric.

 

[bobmid]

And I do I support JRM/DDIDS and co.

Ah just a section of government! You should have been more precise and said support the ERG.

 

[KooPeeArr]

You ca do much better than that. Bring something else to the table other than the usual ant Tory rhetoric.

If there had been an agreed plan then I'd have got on board and backed them. That they've argued with each other from the off hardly makes it anti-Tory rhetoric.

 

[ELLERS]

Ah just a section of government! You should have been more precise and said support the ERG.

Your lucky I didn't mention JR
I also know a few lLibs and Labour bods although I knew a lot of the old lot. Corbyn and his merry muppets are not worth meeting.
You have become a right little political activist for someone who didn't know much. .)