Off Topic UK / EU Future

[superhorns]

So you do not deny the question was simple in or out and that Norway is out so you cannot deny it is a viable solution for out.
Just because you favour the complete break option does not mean all brexiters did - so alternatives to your views are permissable.
As OFH says the 1975 referendum gave a decisive result and did not divide the country. Even you cannot say the same about the 2016 one.

Polls since the referendum clearly show my reasons for voting to leave the EU were also the main reasons the vast number also voted to leave. A Norway style deal is of course an option but hopefully our leaders are seeking a more ambitious deal once the 'no deal' option is a real possibility. I know the EU are more concerned with punishing the UK than the welfare of its own citizens.

A majority is a majority, the rules were clear to see.

 

[Leo]

Polls since the referendum clearly show my reasons for voting to leave the EU were also the main reasons the vast number also voted to leave. A Norway style deal is of course an option but hopefully our leaders are seeking a more ambitious deal once the 'no deal' option is a real possibility. I know the EU are more concerned with punishing the UK than the welfare of its own citizens.

A majority is a majority, the rules were clear to see.

I am not sure what it is with "a majority is a majority; brexit is brexit etc - when did that become an adult argument?
Nobody denies brexit won. However do you not realise that if there is a consensus on a decision it is better than a small difference? When two thirds of people want something it is less divisive.
I am pleased you agree that if brexit is not to your liking it is still brexit.
Anyone who did not think the EU would be determined to make brexit an unattractive option was hiding their head in the sand. All remainers said that - but we were told it was project fear because BMW would insist we had a good deal. Who was right? If it were frexit who thinks we would give the French an easy time? It was never going to be the case.

 

[superhorns]

I am not sure what it is with "a majority is a majority; brexit is brexit etc - when did that become an adult argument?
Nobody denies brexit won. However do you not realise that if there is a consensus on a decision it is better than a small difference? When two thirds of people want something it is less divisive.
I am pleased you agree that if brexit is not to your liking it is still brexit.
Anyone who did not think the EU would be determined to make brexit an unattractive option was hiding their head in the sand. All remainers said that - but we were told it was project fear because BMW would insist we had a good deal. Who was right? If it were frexit who thinks we would give the French an east time? It was never going to be the case.

You may be prepared to wilt in the face of a bully but don't expect others to join you just because they seem to hold power.
The EU trying to cause the UK as much damage as possible is no reason to stay in this nasty decisive inward looking club.

'A majority is a majority' is simply stating the rules of the referendum. Remainers had every opportunity to challenge the rules by lobbying their MPs before they voted overwhelmingly to back those rules. It just make it look like sour grapes which is what it actually is.

 

[superhorns]

What you have been advocating is a break up of the Tory party. Do you really think that the majority of MPs will back one of the right wing plotters? I cannot see it as an outside observer, but then you seem to think that a leadership election would be just a polite exchange of views, and she would potter off to write her memoirs. She will not go willingly, so a fight for all to see would be the result of a challenge.

The 'right wing plotters' seem to have made the government back down over the amendments, maybe a lot more of them than you realise.

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

The 'right wing plotters' seem to have made the government back down over the amendments, maybe a lot more of them than you realise.

Makes little difference as the EU have already said that they will not allow a third country to collect taxes owed to them. A bit more pointless posturing by the plotters, and a bit more desperate party management to try and hold things together for just a few more days.

 

[superhorns]

Makes little difference as the EU have already said that they will not allow a third country to collect taxes owed to them. A bit more pointless posturing by the plotters, and a bit more desperate party management to try and hold things together for just a few more days.

So your favoured proposal is toast already, it was obvious last week it would not work. Hammond and the civil service mandarins should be ditched, they are clueless. May should have left Davis in charge.

The sooner we leave on a 'no deal' the better.

 

[yorkshirehornet]

What you fail to understand SH is that if so called hard Brexiters were in charge we would still have the same impasse.
I keep saying we need consensus something that seems to be a dirty word for you.

Sent from my G3121 using Tapatalk

 

[Leo]

You may be prepared to wilt in the face of a bully but don't expect others to join you just because they seem to hold power.
The EU trying to cause the UK as much damage as possible is no reason to stay in this nasty decisive inward looking club.

'A majority is a majority' is simply stating the rules of the referendum. Remainers had every opportunity to challenge the rules by lobbying their MPs before they voted overwhelmingly to back those rules. It just make it look like sour grapes which is what it actually is.

We were not back on the rules of the referendum - so why bring it up?
I do not wilt in the face of a bully. How do you make that out? You said the EU were giving us a hard time - boo hoo - and I said we expected them to.
Most people want a soft brexit - 100% remainers and many brexiters so it would command a majority if you hard line brexiters ever dared to "let the people" speak again - but you are too afraid you would lose heavily. So you stick to one referendum and claim all brexiters wanted it. Nonsense.
Those of us who voted remain did so because we liked the club. It has seen the UK prosper for 40 years. How it can be termed inward looking when it has expanded from 6 to 28 countries and will expand further I am not sure. It is perpetually doing trade deals around the world which is I thought what you would like the UK to do. Nobody denies the EU is far from perfect but some of us think on balance it is very positive.
.

 

[Leo]

What you fail to understand SH is that if so called hard Brexiters were in charge we would still have the same impasse.
I keep saying we need consensus something that seems to be a dirty word for you.

Sent from my G3121 using Tapatalk

The trouble is there can be no consensus. Hard brexiters will never agree to a Norway deal any more than they would staying in the EU. Soft brexiters and remainers could probably reach a consensus but never with people who prefer no deal.
Unfortunately no deal is the default position that we arrive at and hard brexiters know that - they have to persuade nobody but just be as obstructive as possible.
I hope they do push it too far. The government would fall. Labour would come to power. They would ask the EU for additional time due to the disruption and of course be given it and we would get a truly soft brexit.

 

[superhorns]

Most Brexiteers voted leave knowing it would mean being outside of the single market and the customs union. Cameron said it, Osbourne said it Farage said it, it was extremely well known. Our PM has constantly said, up to last weekend anyway, that leaving the EU meant leaving the single market and customs union.

Not hard to see the pattern.

 

[colognehornet]

The question of Labour's attitude to Brexit may be an academic one. The electoral system has become so distorted (in terms of boundary changes) that even a 4% lead for Labour would, in all probability, translate into a minority government which would need support from the SNP or the Lib Dems, or possibly both. In order to get a majority Labour may need to be 6-7% ahead. At the moment Corbyn is not in favour of a second referendum but this could well change if he needs the support of parties that are. But what would a second referendum bring ? In all probability another close result which would rip the country apart again - perhaps a 52%-48% result for remain, which would also be 'unfinished business'. After 2 years could we then go back to the EU. and say 'we don't want to do it' with any credibility ? Would we not also make ourselves liable for all of those costs which have ensued in the meantime - all those relocations of firms and offices, not to mention the changes made in ports like Rotterdam and Antwerp, which were a preparation for Brexit.

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

So your favoured proposal is toast already, it was obvious last week it would not work. Hammond and the civil service mandarins should be ditched, they are clueless. May should have left Davis in charge.

The sooner we leave on a 'no deal' the better.

How many times do I have to tell you that this is not my favoured proposal? As has just been said on TV it looks like a waif that no one wants to adopt. Problem is that it is being sold by your PM, the one you voted for, and she now has to see it through. Party before country? It looks more like a group within the party who are putting their own interests ahead of both party and country. You can see the same personal interests within the Labour party, and while this splintering of views that reflect the views in the country, there is no reasonable way forward.

 

[superhorns]

We were not back on the rules of the referendum - so why bring it up?
I do not wilt in the face of a bully. How do you make that out? You said the EU were giving us a hard time - boo hoo - and I said we expected them to.
Most people want a soft brexit - 100% remainers and many brexiters so it would command a majority if you hard line brexiters ever dared to "let the people" speak again - but you are too afraid you would lose heavily. So you stick to one referendum and claim all brexiters wanted it. Nonsense.
Those of us who voted remain did so because we liked the club. It has seen the UK prosper for 40 years. How it can be termed inward looking when it has expanded from 6 to 28 countries and will expand further I am not sure. It is perpetually doing trade deals around the world which is I thought what you would like the UK to do. Nobody denies the EU is far from perfect but some of us think on balance it is very positive.
.

You were trying to disregard the rules because the majority was smaller than the previous referendum.

The EU faces serious and mounting problems with major disagreement between members over immigration. Trump will insist on fairer tariffs on trade. The EU will be further from perfect in future.

 

[superhorns]

How many times do I have to tell you that this is not my favoured proposal? As has just been said on TV it looks like a waif that no one wants to adopt. Problem is that it is being sold by your PM, the one you voted for, and she now has to see it through. Party before country? It looks more like a group within the party who are putting their own interests ahead of both party and country. You can see the same personal interests within the Labour party, and while this splintering of views that reflect the views in the country, there is no reasonable way forward.

The Tory government has to prioritise the views of the majority that voted for Brexit, 17.4 million, to ensure we actually leave.

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

The Tory government has to prioritise the views of the majority that voted for Brexit, 17.4 million, to ensure we actually leave.

No it doesn't. It has to do what is the best for the country. As we can see the government do not know what is the best thing to do.

 

[J T Bodbo]

Anyone who thinks that leaving the EU will return sovereignty to the UK parliament should read ‘Fantasy Island’ by Conor Gearty.
Anyone who thinks that after leaving the EU we will quickly arrange trade deals beneficial to the Uk (I .e. Better than the ones made by the EU on our behalf) should ask Liam Fox what he had actually achieved.
Anyone who thinks that the net money we pay to the EU doesn’t create any value for UK citizens just doesn’t Understand how complex international trading actually is-not forgetting the huge additional cost we will have to incur in setting border control.
Anyone who thinks we can magically reduce / control immigration by leaving the EU hasn’t seen the numbers. We hugely need immigration as our useless govt. had failed to invest in people since 2010. The only way to stop immigration is to become more like North .Korea.
And finally , as Has been said repeatedly, we cannot leave the customs union and Single market without breaking the Good Friday agreement. So far I have not seen one (ONE) constructive realistic fact based proposal about any of the key issues arising from leaving from those keen to leave the EU that makes any sense. Actually, any proposals at all would be a step forward. All we have had is consistent carping about what has been proposed, total whinging because some people thought it was and is a good idea to remain.
All of which suggests to me that since the day after the referendum and for all of the last 2 years, those wishing to leave have absolutely no clue about what to do.

 

[rudebwoy]

spot on in your analysis JT Bodbo , it would be laughable if it wasn't such a tragedy , their aim is to cheapen our economy , but to do that , all workers rights will need to be abolished , race to the bottom , it will enrich a privileged few but many of the middle class will be destitute and have to join the rest of us in precarious employment.....

The brexit gang haven't come out with any vision , plan ,or even a workable idea apart from leave , and see what happens !!

 

[Leo]

Most Brexiteers voted leave knowing it would mean being outside of the single market and the customs union. Cameron said it, Osbourne said it Farage said it, it was extremely well known. Our PM has constantly said, up to last weekend anyway, that leaving the EU meant leaving the single market and customs union.

Not hard to see the pattern.

So people believed Cameron and Osbourne did they? I thought what they said were lies - project fear - so who on the brexit side said it?
Most brexiteers did not say it as they tried to con people by letting them have a nice "safe" Norway option.
Sorry SH you cannot have it both ways. You cannot quote Cameron as true when it suits you and lies when it does not.
Lots of people said lots of things in the campaign. The only thing that is relevant is what did the ballot paper say? Nothing on that.

 

[Leo]

You were trying to disregard the rules because the majority was smaller than the previous referendum.

The EU faces serious and mounting problems with major disagreement between members over immigration. Trump will insist on fairer tariffs on trade. The EU will be further from perfect in future.

I said nothing about disregarding the rules. I suggested that where a large majority exists it is less divisive. That is just true.
Your wonderful and oft quoted 17.4 m is out of a population of 66m so do not pretend the will of the people was remotely decisive.

 

[superhorns]

So people believed Cameron and Osbourne did they? I thought what they said were lies - project fear - so who on the brexit side said it?
Most brexiteers did not say it as they tried to con people by letting them have a nice "safe" Norway option.
Sorry SH you cannot have it both ways. You cannot quote Cameron as true when it suits you and lies when it does not.
Lots of people said lots of things in the campaign. The only thing that is relevant is what did the ballot paper say? Nothing on that.

Many people believed Cameron and Osborne. I just reminded you what Cameron said about the single market and the customs union. I did not give my view on the validity of his opinions apart from pointing out his flawed comments during project fear.

Did you question the same process in 1975? It is clear sour grapes because the remainers lost the referendum.