Effect of Brexit

[colognehornet]

I'm surprised you stayed around this long - nothing has changed with the Liberal Lefty clique on here. I take a look now again, but there is no point in contributing.

Just look at this private message I received a while back from their pet pit-bull Toby:-

I don't post on this board anymore, nor does BB, yet you permanently bleat on about some 'clique' bullshit whilst acting like a complete cock as usual.

You should be ****ing ashamed of yourself. I'm ashamed that you're a so-called 'Watford fan', just like your xenophobic buddy SH.

I wish you a miserable life, but you're probably on track for that already

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Just **** off.

If it was a private message it should remain that way W_Y !

 

[colognehornet]

There was no need to resort to 'catty' comments when faced with clear facts. A potential candidate standing on any form of communism in the UK is likely to attract a very poor level of support from the public. Momentum, under Corbyn's leadership, have found it much easier to infiltrate the Labour Party to gain political influence. Nobody is saying most of the recent surge in LP membership are Trots, they are simply, mainly young, gullible and looking for an alternative to main stream politics. Many will no doubt be voting Lib Dem or Conservative in a few years time.

I would suggest the well established fact that increasing age also increases the likelihood of voting Conservative is purely down to the past performances of the main political parties.

It is a pity all of these Tories amongst us old men have been squeezed out of this forum. The clique will ensure they will not be welcome to express their views.

The fact that it was a catty comment doesn't detract from the truth of it ! You have been very liberal in the past with labelling people 'Communist', 'Trotskyist' etc. without showing a parallel understanding of those terms, only a willingness to use scaremongering tactics.

 

[superhorns]

If it was a private message it should remain that way W_Y !

I'm not surprised by this comment whatsoever, the clique will close ranks.

 

[wear_yellow]

If it was a private message it should remain that way W_Y !

Predictable - it was unrequested, so I am entitled to do what I like with it. I have no intention of ever engaging that nasty piece of work.

 

[superhorns]

The fact that it was a catty comment doesn't detract from the truth of it ! You have been very liberal in the past with labelling people 'Communist', 'Trotskyist' etc. without showing a parallel understanding of those terms, only a willingness to use scaremongering tactics.

If UK residents have Trotsky or general communists views that is fine by me. Where I do object is the insidious infiltration of a respectable main UK political Party by some of those unwilling to stand on their own ticket. It will be Labour Party supporters who will lose first class MP's when they appear on McCluskey's hit list for de-selection.

 

[colognehornet]

I'm not surprised by this comment whatsoever, the clique will close ranks.

It's not a question of politics, which you well know. A private message is exactly that 'private', it is not meant to be plastered over the boards, however offensive it may be. It may also have been part of a 2 way dialogue, the rest of which we will not see.

 

[colognehornet]

If UK residents have Trotsky or general communists views that is fine by me. Where I do object is the insidious infiltration of a respectable main UK political Party by some of those unwilling to stand on their own ticket. It will be Labour Party supporters who will lose first class MP's when they appear on McCluskey's hit list for de-selection.

If you can prove that there is a correlation between membership of organizations like the SWP or other Marxist groupings and the Labour Party then kindly provide that proof, or give up the scaremongering.

 

[superhorns]

If you can prove that there is a correlation between membership of organizations like the SWP or other Marxist groupings and the Labour Party then kindly provide that proof, or give up the scaremongering.

You obviously have not been following McClusky's comments for the last couple of years. It is those 100+ Labour MP's that told Corbyn he was not up to the job that will be targeted.

Tom Watson, the Labour Deputy leader agrees with me. Maybe you will trust a 'Guardian' article.

Tom Watson sends Corbyn 'proof of Trotskyist Labour infiltration ...

 

[Tobes]

You cannot say "the youth voted to remain" if only a percentage did. You can say more of them than older people did or even a majority - but "the youth" is inaccurate.
Unless you have psychic powers or are a gifted psephologist you cannot really make valid predictions though about how any changes will go. The polls so far give no clues. It is perfectly possible to argue that in each age group as time passes the percentages will remain similar. Your argument is that the pro-remain voters will simply age and not adapt to their increased age and life perceptions. You cannot know that. If history tells us anything it is that animosity towards the EU increased up to the referendum from 1975 so perhaps a referendum in 5 years would give a 60% leave vote. We just do not know. It is democratic to carry out a referendum's result - nobody stipulated how long it may take or that if not complete in such and such a time we needed another vote. I agree that it is simplistic to say people get more conservative with age - but countless studies have indicated they do. I have seen none that suggest a majority become more radical - individuals yes but collectives -no.
Conservatism has nothing to do with brexit - it was only used to refute your suggestion that as people age they will carry the same opinions.

You can say that our youth voted to Remain, in exactly the same way you can say the country voted for Brexit. Only the margins were far more decisive. 71% of 18-24 year olds voted for Remain.

The implication of your argument is basically intimating that ‘they’ll learn’ and might change their view over time. Which completely ignores the stark differences to how your generation and milenials view some of the benefits of the EU. Freedom of movement being one example, plenty of young people like the idea that they can just pitch up anywhere within the EU and work freely, whether that be for a short spell or a long term / permanent move.

They’re also don’t generally have the same seemingly deep seat resentment of immigration that appears to increase in line with the age groups.

Due to the age demographic of the vote back in 2016, mortaility rates and the number of new voters coming onto the electoral role, there’ll be a remain majority by the point we leave (there already is now according to the current polls). More saliently, the entire Brexit majority of 1.2m will be dead by 2020.

This is a decision that will impact them far more tha it’ll impact the older generation that were so pro Brexit. I find that ironic given the massive economic benefit that the baby boomer generation has been on the right end of during our 45 year tenure. We’ve now decided to jump into the abyss, no wonder they’re hacked off.

 

[colognehornet]

You obviously have not been following McClusky's comments for the last couple of years. It is those 100+ Labour MP's that told Corbyn he was not up to the job that will be targeted.

Tom Watson, the Labour Deputy leader agrees with me. Maybe you will trust a 'Guardian' article.

Tom Watson sends Corbyn 'proof of Trotskyist Labour infiltration ...

The media certainly is hell bent on discrediting Corbyn and his supporters in any way they can SH. so I take a lot of this with a pinch of salt. That there is a circle of Labour MPs who have become scared of the grass roots of their own party - this I can believe. The grass roots have been left of the parliamentary LP for as long as I can remember. All parties have tendencies and sections within them who try to guide the party in a certain way - the Tories have this as well, and with a total membership of less than 100,000 it is more to be feared with them than with Labour who have over 600,000 members. It is not allowed in the Labour Party to be a member of another party at the same time (unless the other party is abroad) - to stop people joining because of their former party membership would be highly undemocratic. In any case these other parties such as the SWP, Socialist Party of Britain etc. are all legal parties who are not (as far as I know) involved in law breaking. As long as people within the party are dedicated to a democratic route to power what does it matter what ideological identities they may have, or have had. As far as I know momentum has a membership of around 20,000 - that is around one in every 30 members - hardly a takeover, and hardly a majority amongst Corbyn supporters. If it can be proved that they constitute a 'party within a party', with their own agenda which is separate to that of the party as a whole, and is detremental to it then action should be taken. But we are very far from that scenario, and Corbyn knows this. There is more chance of the loony right taking over the shrinking, aging Tory party than there is of this.

 

[Leo]

You can say that our youth voted to Remain, in exactly the same way you can say the country voted for Brexit. Only the margins were far more decisive. 71% of 18-24 year olds voted for Remain.

The implication of your argument is basically intimating that ‘they’ll learn’ and might change their view over time. Which completely ignores the stark differences to how your generation and milenials view some of the benefits of the EU. Freedom of movement being one example, plenty of young people like the idea that they can just pitch up anywhere within the EU and work freely, whether that be for a short spell or a long term / permanent move.

They’re also don’t generally have the same seemingly deep seat resentment of immigration that appears to increase in line with the age groups.

Due to the age demographic of the vote back in 2016, mortaility rates and the number of new voters coming onto the electoral role, there’ll be a remain majority by the point we leave (there already is now according to the current polls). More saliently, the entire Brexit majority of 1.2m will be dead by 2020.

This is a decision that will impact them far more tha it’ll impact the older generation that were so pro Brexit. I find that ironic given the massive economic benefit that the baby boomer generation has been on the right end of during our 45 year tenure. We’ve now decided to jump into the abyss, no wonder they’re hacked off.

Good post - and I don't mean that to be patronising but it does sound a bit like that. Let me respond.
You see I would argue the country did NOT vote for brexit. There was a slim majority who did and unfortunately the rules allowed this slim majority to bind the whole country. To say that a group or whatever voted for something you need to feel it was fairly overwhelming, Brexit clearly was not and I would argue that so few 18-24 year olds bothered to vote that we really do not know what the majority thought.
My argument is not that "they'll learn". Quite the opposite - I argue we do not know what they will think in the future whereas Cologne tried to suggest they will move up with the same views. That does not happen. People change over time and if they are intelligent their views change too. So we do not know what they will think or vote in 5, 10 years time.
Do not try to categorise me - and do not join Cologne and others in an ageism thing. I voted remain as did all my friends and family - including my 94 year old father. The young are no more intelligent than the old and I value freedom of movement totally - as do many older people. The deep resentment of foreigners is as has been previously discussed on here a legacy of being British and our Empire. Thankfully younger people are indeed less imbued with that. However it is the media - and especially some of the press that has stirred up so much of the immigration bad feeling. I do not believe the young are any more immune to their hatred than the old are.

You are following Cologne's error in your mortality argument. You assume people do not change their opinion as they age. As I said before, the anti EU feeling - here and in Europe has increased in the last decade so your demographics are meaningless. Unless the trend is reversed the vote for brexit will increase not reduce over time. Polls show that the country is still evenly divided on brexit. In fact they forecast a "remain" victory as they forecast a large victory for Theresa May last year - how did both of those turn out?

 

[superhorns]

The media certainly is hell bent on discrediting Corbyn and his supporters in any way they can SH. so I take a lot of this with a pinch of salt. That there is a circle of Labour MPs who have become scared of the grass roots of their own party - this I can believe. The grass roots have been left of the parliamentary LP for as long as I can remember. All parties have tendencies and sections within them who try to guide the party in a certain way - the Tories have this as well, and with a total membership of less than 100,000 it is more to be feared with them than with Labour who have over 600,000 members. It is not allowed in the Labour Party to be a member of another party at the same time (unless the other party is abroad) - to stop people joining because of their former party membership would be highly undemocratic. In any case these other parties such as the SWP, Socialist Party of Britain etc. are all legal parties who are not (as far as I know) involved in law breaking. As long as people within the party are dedicated to a democratic route to power what does it matter what ideological identities they may have, or have had. As far as I know momentum has a membership of around 20,000 - that is around one in every 30 members - hardly a takeover, and hardly a majority amongst Corbyn supporters. If it can be proved that they constitute a 'party within a party', with their own agenda which is separate to that of the party as a whole, and is detremental to it then action should be taken. But we are very far from that scenario, and Corbyn knows this. There is more chance of the loony right taking over the shrinking, aging Tory party than there is of this.

I'm not sure you can accurately accuse the Guardian of discrediting Corbyn by reporting serious rifts within the LP.

It does not need many ultra keen activists to dominate local political and union meetings so 20k momentum members can assert much more effect than their numbers would suggest.

I bet you are glad I gave you the opportunity to mention political party membership numbers again!!!!!!!

 

[Leo]

The media certainly is hell bent on discrediting Corbyn and his supporters in any way they can SH. so I take a lot of this with a pinch of salt. That there is a circle of Labour MPs who have become scared of the grass roots of their own party - this I can believe. The grass roots have been left of the parliamentary LP for as long as I can remember. All parties have tendencies and sections within them who try to guide the party in a certain way - the Tories have this as well, and with a total membership of less than 100,000 it is more to be feared with them than with Labour who have over 600,000 members. It is not allowed in the Labour Party to be a member of another party at the same time (unless the other party is abroad) - to stop people joining because of their former party membership would be highly undemocratic. In any case these other parties such as the SWP, Socialist Party of Britain etc. are all legal parties who are not (as far as I know) involved in law breaking. As long as people within the party are dedicated to a democratic route to power what does it matter what ideological identities they may have, or have had. As far as I know momentum has a membership of around 20,000 - that is around one in every 30 members - hardly a takeover, and hardly a majority amongst Corbyn supporters. If it can be proved that they constitute a 'party within a party', with their own agenda which is separate to that of the party as a whole, and is detremental to it then action should be taken. But we are very far from that scenario, and Corbyn knows this. There is more chance of the loony right taking over the shrinking, aging Tory party than there is of this.

You overlook the fact that Momentum, like Tribune before them know the essentials of taking over a movement. The rulebook was written long ago and has been used by left and right Communists and Nazis. Momentum are taking control of Labour by taking control of elements like the NEC and then using it to further their agenda. They may not technically break Labour's rules on being a party within the party - but in reality they are.
They will not succeed because the British electorate has never yet voted in numbers for anything other than a centrist Labour Party. Blair was that - and he won 3 elections. Brown moved away and Labour has now been defeated in 3 elections.

 

[superhorns]

I'm just off for a curry, I do like the right sort of immigration.

 

[colognehornet]

I'm not sure you can accurately accuse the Guardian of discrediting Corbyn by reporting serious rifts within the LP.

It does not need many ultra keen activists to dominate local political and union meetings so 20k momentum members can assert much more effect than their numbers would suggest.

I bet you are glad I gave you the opportunity to mention political party membership numbers again!!!!!!!

Well I know it's a boring theme but you must admit it's easier to take over a small party then a large one.

 

[Leo]

I'm just off for a curry, I do like the right sort of immigration.

Curry here too.
I liked Tony Curry too.

 

[Leo]

Well I know it's a boring theme but you must admit it's easier to take over a small party then a large one.

Not true. Easier to take over a party like Labour that allows its members to take control. The Tory party could never be taken over in that way. You have never understood that party membership is a false statistic.

 

[canary-dave]

Curry here too.
I liked Tony Curry too.

But have you read the Korma Sutra

 

[colognehornet]

Not true. Easier to take over a party like Labour that allows its members to take control. The Tory party could never be taken over in that way. You have never understood that party membership is a false statistic.

Allowing your members to take control is what democracy is all about Leo. You cannot expect parties to work within a democracy if they are, themselves, undemocratic in their inner party organization. If momentum is overrepresented on the NEC. it is because they were voted into that by the party membership - every member could vote online in seconds on this one. Maybe momentum is more representative of the grass roots membership than the PLP. With or without Momentum the grass roots membership has nearly always been further left than the PLP and we are now seeing the results of that. The idea that whenever Labour moves to the left it loses is a fallacy which is mostly based on the experience of the Michael Foot period - he lost because of a party split not because of the electorate. Gordon Brown I could never have described as far left, and so this theory remains largely unproved. It is certainly true that if the Labour Party shifts to the left then the media declares war on them, but with the use of internet the role of the newspapers in deciding elections may be coming to a close.

 

[Leo]

Allowing your members to take control is what democracy is all about Leo. You cannot expect parties to work within a democracy if they are, themselves, undemocratic in their inner party organization. If momentum is overrepresented on the NEC. it is because they were voted into that by the party membership - every member could vote online in seconds on this one. Maybe momentum is more representative of the grass roots membership than the PLP. With or without Momentum the grass roots membership has nearly always been further left than the PLP and we are now seeing the results of that. The idea that whenever Labour moves to the left it loses is a fallacy which is mostly based on the experience of the Michael Foot period - he lost because of a party split not because of the electorate. Gordon Brown I could never have described as far left, and so this theory remains largely unproved. It is certainly true that if the Labour Party shifts to the left then the media declares war on them, but with the use of internet the role of the newspapers in deciding elections may be coming to a close.

Allowing 400,000 people to join your parry and take control has nothing that smacks of any democracy I like.