Effect of Brexit

[kchorn]

The right wing in one party and the left wing in the other are vying to take control of the country. The EU debate is a useful vehicle to fight out this battle.

And luckily neither can succeed without taking the middle ground

Which I think is why brexit is so difficult. There is, as Leo explains, no middle ground. Between a rock and a hard place as the Yanks say.

Doesn't mean we cannot make a success which ever way we go. Or indeed if the EU collapses it may be seen as a success even if it is a disaster.

But like any major change it will be painful for many

 

[Leo]

I think that to suggest it is the right wing of one party versus the left in another in a power struggle is simplistic. It is much more complicated than that.
There were many reasons why people voted brexit and it crossed party, gender, age and race lines. To go back over the old debates is fruitless.
If you voted remain you clearly accepted the EU as a "package" which contained good bits and bad but overall you felt we were better in the club. Having left the club you may or may not want to be subject to its rules when you cannot have everything you previously had and certainly will have no influence over its future. You may feel that having left, the UK now needs to find its own path and not go for a quasi-EU / EEA solution.
If you voted brexit it is possible you did not want the full EU rules but did not want to walk away entirely so hoped for a Norway or Canada type solution - that was one option "on offer" which is now downplayed by hard line brexiters. Probably most brexiters realised we would not stay in the customs union or single market as they were only on offer with the EU's 4 pillars. An attraction was the idea we could (as long as we were not tied to the customs union) go and forge independent trade deals with 3rd party countries.
If we go down the EEA route then we cannot make independent trade deals - to many brexiters that is a no-no.

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

I think that to suggest it is the right wing of one party versus the left in another in a power struggle is simplistic. It is much more complicated than that.
There were many reasons why people voted brexit and it crossed party, gender, age and race lines. To go back over the old debates is fruitless.
If you voted remain you clearly accepted the EU as a "package" which contained good bits and bad but overall you felt we were better in the club. Having left the club you may or may not want to be subject to its rules when you cannot have everything you previously had and certainly will have no influence over its future. You may feel that having left, the UK now needs to find its own path and not go for a quasi-EU / EEA solution.
If you voted brexit it is possible you did not want the full EU rules but did not want to walk away entirely so hoped for a Norway or Canada type solution - that was one option "on offer" which is now downplayed by hard line brexiters. Probably most brexiters realised we would not stay in the customs union or single market as they were only on offer with the EU's 4 pillars. An attraction was the idea we could (as long as we were not tied to the customs union) go and forge independent trade deals with 3rd party countries.
If we go down the EEA route then we cannot make independent trade deals - to many brexiters that is a no-no.

I was actually talking about the here and now Leo. The people said what they thought on a particular day, but since then they have had no further say on this one issue. The GE was not a further vote on Brexit. No the people handed over to the MPs correctly to do what was best for the country. We live in a parliamentary democracy and that is the way is has to be. Since then we have to focus on what is happening in Westminster, and we see the right wing making life as difficult as possible for the government and the leadership of Labour party at odds with their MPs. There is clearly a majority of MPs who are against Brexit, and some of them are brave enough to admit that they will vote for measures that have the minimal impact on the well being of people rather than what they are told they should do. If you wish to see good government you have to cast the extremists of whatever hue to one side. Put the peoples vote into context as that did not deal with a fraction of the issues, but we should also realise that there are extremists who see the opportunity to use the situation to further their own agendas.

 

[Leo]

I was actually talking about the here and now Leo. The people said what they thought on a particular day, but since then they have had no further say on this one issue. The GE was not a further vote on Brexit. No the people handed over to the MPs correctly to do what was best for the country. We live in a parliamentary democracy and that is the way is has to be. Since then we have to focus on what is happening in Westminster, and we see the right wing making life as difficult as possible for the government and the leadership of Labour party at odds with their MPs. There is clearly a majority of MPs who are against Brexit, and some of them are brave enough to admit that they will vote for measures that have the minimal impact on the well being of people rather than what they are told they should do. If you wish to see good government you have to cast the extremists of whatever hue to one side. Put the peoples vote into context as that did not deal with a fraction of the issues, but we should also realise that there are extremists who see the opportunity to use the situation to further their own agendas.

That is one way of looking at it.
A referendum is always a "particular day". Polls since then have not shown significant movement for what they are worth. Instead most people -for and against - seem to have become fairly entrenched in their opinion.
I am not sure when "the people handed over to the MPs ......" We live in a parliamentary democracy and that seems to be continuing as normal. The key point always made by brexiters - and by both major political parties - is that the people were given a referendum and that parliament feels duty bound to deliver on their wishes. There are lots of arguments that can be made about whether a referendum was, could have been, should have been etc "binding" but all parties have said it is so we have to live with that. Again it has nothing to do with Labour or Conservative, left or right. It is not the "right wing" making life as difficult as possible" but hard line brexiters. The Tory party is split and as we saw yesterday Labour is equally split.
Brexit is fundamentally undeliverable. Nobody thought it would happen so too little thought was ever given to the whats why and so forth. All we have now is a bunch of people determined we shall have some form of brexit and arguing over what sort that will be. A fine mess we have gotten into.
Many MPs are conflicted - there are three strands - their own views, their constituency's view and "the good of the country" view. Who is so clever as to tell us which is the correct voice MPs should listen to?
Finally using the term "extremist" is just a pejorative way of describing those we do not like. As with terrorism - one person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. What were Ghandi and Nelson Mandela? Some people honestly believe that the UK will be better to do its own deals. They may be right, they may be wrong but it is an honest opinion and should be respected as such without name calling.

 

[colognehornet]

That is one way of looking at it.
A referendum is always a "particular day". Polls since then have not shown significant movement for what they are worth. Instead most people -for and against - seem to have become fairly entrenched in their opinion.
I am not sure when "the people handed over to the MPs ......" We live in a parliamentary democracy and that seems to be continuing as normal. The key point always made by brexiters - and by both major political parties - is that the people were given a referendum and that parliament feels duty bound to deliver on their wishes. There are lots of arguments that can be made about whether a referendum was, could have been, should have been etc "binding" but all parties have said it is so we have to live with that. Again it has nothing to do with Labour or Conservative, left or right. It is not the "right wing" making life as difficult as possible" but hard line brexiters. The Tory party is split and as we saw yesterday Labour is equally split.
Brexit is fundamentally undeliverable. Nobody thought it would happen so too little thought was ever given to the whats why and so forth. All we have now is a bunch of people determined we shall have some form of brexit and arguing over what sort that will be. A fine mess we have gotten into.
Many MPs are conflicted - there are three strands - their own views, their constituency's view and "the good of the country" view. Who is so clever as to tell us which is the correct voice MPs should listen to?
Finally using the term "extremist" is just a pejorative way of describing those we do not like. As with terrorism - one person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. What were Ghandi and Nelson Mandela? Some people honestly believe that the UK will be better to do its own deals. They may be right, they may be wrong but it is an honest opinion and should be respected as such without name calling.

That 'Particular Day' of the referendum is becoming history day by day Leo. Those who voted for Brexit did not dream for one minute that we would still be in the EU. 2 years later - still negotiating, pleading for more time, etc.etc. Realistically if Britain does actually cut the chord finally it could be as much as 5 years after the referendum result - are we still bound to honour the result of a referendum which has nearly faded into history ? You have said that the result cut across all segments of British society - it didn't. 2 of the constituent countries of the UK. voted against, as did our capital city and all the other biggest cities eg. Birmingham, Sheffield, Manchester, Liverpool etc. As did the youth of this country. By the time Britain actually leaves (if it does) the electorate will have changed - those of 14/15/16 will then be of voting age and many of the older carrot crunchers of middle England will have left us for pastures new. Would it be democratic to leave the EU. if the electorate was against it at the time of leaving ? The answer to that is a resounding no. The more time goes by the less relevant the referendum result becomes.

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

You can use extremist in different ways, the joys of the English language. The way that I was implying was simple. As far from the centre as possible. That is how I describe hard line brexiteers. I would also put one or two Labour MPs into the same bracket.

 

[superhorns]

You can use extremist in different ways, the joys of the English language. The way that I was implying was simple. As far from the centre as possible. That is how I describe hard line brexiteers. I would also put one or two Labour MPs into the same bracket.

Unlike France and many other European countries the UK does not suffer from huge support for the extremes in politics. Apart from the recent rise of the Marxist inspired momentum group within the Labour Party the general views of all political parties represented in parliament remain well within a fairly narrow centrist band.

Hopefully your two 'hard line' Brexiteers do not include either the excellent Kate Hoey and/or Frank Field, two excellent free thinking parliamentarians.

Millions of those that voted for Brexit wanted a clean break which secured sovereignty, ended free movement, uncoupled the UK from a potential EU superstate and gave us the opportunity to trade freely with the rest of the world. These people cannot accurately be described as extremists in any sense of the word.

 

[Leo]

That 'Particular Day' of the referendum is becoming history day by day Leo. Those who voted for Brexit did not dream for one minute that we would still be in the EU. 2 years later - still negotiating, pleading for more time, etc.etc. Realistically if Britain does actually cut the chord finally it could be as much as 5 years after the referendum result - are we still bound to honour the result of a referendum which has nearly faded into history ? You have said that the result cut across all segments of British society - it didn't. 2 of the constituent countries of the UK. voted against, as did our capital city and all the other biggest cities eg. Birmingham, Sheffield, Manchester, Liverpool etc. As did the youth of this country. By the time Britain actually leaves (if it does) the electorate will have changed - those of 14/15/16 will then be of voting age and many of the older carrot crunchers of middle England will have left us for pastures new. Would it be democratic to leave the EU. if the electorate was against it at the time of leaving ? The answer to that is a resounding no. The more time goes by the less relevant the referendum result becomes.

Thanks for letting me know the concept of time.
In fact had we triggered Article 50 the day after the referendum we would still be within its 2 year period for negotiation. In clause 50 there was provision that the 2 years could be extended with the agreement of all 28 nations so I think it was quite open that brexit would take time to accomplish. As it is severing nearly 50 years of ties between us I am sure most people would not consider it unreasonable if brexit took a while. It is as important fo rthe other 27 as it is for the UK to agree brexit- I am not sure there were any prizes for a rush were there?
Faded into history? Are you joking - for most of us it is still red raw. Even a Parliament runs for 5 years so I am not sure 5 years is the "age" you imply. Does a referendum carry a date stamp - do this by such and such a time or it expires? It is talked about every day and is far from "history".
Of course it cut across all segments of society. The two countries voting remain had significant proportions of people who voted brexit - as did London. As for the youth - their turnout was desperately poor - perhaps if more had been bothered the result could have been different. Old, young, black white, male female, England Scotland, NI and Wales were all substantially divided. This old argument that the young believe "x" so the future will change is rubbish. You forget that the young become middle aged and the middle aged become old. That is why we do not have a permanent socialist party in power - people like cheese mature with age. The young start with socialist ideals and then become taxpayers.
Is it democratic to ban foxhuniting and capital punishment when the electorate do not support those? Yes - and it is democratic to implement the result of a democratic referendum. How would anyone know what the electorate thought at the time of leaving? An opinion poll? Another referendum - would that be democratic - keep having referenda till you get the answer you like. That smacks of EU democracy. Anyway we leave next March and so far the opinion polls remain much as the vote.

 

[Leo]

You can use extremist in different ways, the joys of the English language. The way that I was implying was simple. As far from the centre as possible. That is how I describe hard line brexiteers. I would also put one or two Labour MPs into the same bracket.

You certainly can. However if you look up the meaning:
noun
derogatory
noun: extremist; plural noun: extremists
a person who holds extreme political or religious views, especially one who advocates illegal, violent, or other extreme action
synonyms:fanatic, radical, zealot, fundamentalist, hardliner, dogmatist, bigot, diehard, militant, activist

It is clear the term is not usually neutral. Hard line brexit may be fair but extremist as the definition says is derogatory. It is perfectly possible to suggest that someone who supports overriding a nation's parliament and courts with a body or bodies they have little or no power over is themselves extremist.

It comes back to perception - we tend to attack the views we do not support.

 

[colognehornet]

Thanks for letting me know the concept of time.
In fact had we triggered Article 50 the day after the referendum we would still be within its 2 year period for negotiation. In clause 50 there was provision that the 2 years could be extended with the agreement of all 28 nations so I think it was quite open that brexit would take time to accomplish. As it is severing nearly 50 years of ties between us I am sure most people would not consider it unreasonable if brexit took a while. It is as important fo rthe other 27 as it is for the UK to agree brexit- I am not sure there were any prizes for a rush were there?
Faded into history? Are you joking - for most of us it is still red raw. Even a Parliament runs for 5 years so I am not sure 5 years is the "age" you imply. Does a referendum carry a date stamp - do this by such and such a time or it expires? It is talked about every day and is far from "history".
Of course it cut across all segments of society. The two countries voting remain had significant proportions of people who voted brexit - as did London. As for the youth - their turnout was desperately poor - perhaps if more had been bothered the result could have been different. Old, young, black white, male female, England Scotland, NI and Wales were all substantially divided. This old argument that the young believe "x" so the future will change is rubbish. You forget that the young become middle aged and the middle aged become old. That is why we do not have a permanent socialist party in power - people like cheese mature with age. The young start with socialist ideals and then become taxpayers.
Is it democratic to ban foxhuniting and capital punishment when the electorate do not support those? Yes - and it is democratic to implement the result of a democratic referendum. How would anyone know what the electorate thought at the time of leaving? An opinion poll? Another referendum - would that be democratic - keep having referenda till you get the answer you like. That smacks of EU democracy. Anyway we leave next March and so far the opinion polls remain much as the vote.

You are making some very sweeping statements here Leo. I am more of a communist now than I was at 18. Going back to the referendum - I do not think that Article 50 was actually mentioned during the run up to the referendum, and so many Brexiters probably thought we could get out over the weekend. At any rate not many of them would have bargained with us being in the uncertain state we are in 2 years later. As for the EU. repeating referenda until they get the right result - this is pure fantasy. They take something away, change it, and then have a new referendum on the revised version of something which is a completely different thing.

 

[Deleted.......]

"that particular day" is my birthday. I have had better presents...

 

[Deleted.......]

You are making some very sweeping statements here Leo. I am more of a communist now than I was at 18. Going back to the referendum - I do not think that Article 50 was actually mentioned during the run up to the referendum, and so many Brexiters probably thought we could get out over the weekend. At any rate not many of them would have bargained with us being in the uncertain state we are in 2 years later. As for the EU. repeating referenda until they get the right result - this is pure fantasy. They take something away, change it, and then have a new referendum on the revised version of something which is a completely different thing.

The EU cannot make any body vote again. The ones who do that are the national governments none of whom had the gumption to say no to the EU. It only takes one to do it.

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

You certainly can. However if you look up the meaning:
noun
derogatory
noun: extremist; plural noun: extremists
a person who holds extreme political or religious views, especially one who advocates illegal, violent, or other extreme action
synonyms:fanatic, radical, zealot, fundamentalist, hardliner, dogmatist, bigot, diehard, militant, activist

It is clear the term is not usually neutral. Hard line brexit may be fair but extremist as the definition says is derogatory. It is perfectly possible to suggest that someone who supports overriding a nation's parliament and courts with a body or bodies they have little or no power over is themselves extremist.

It comes back to perception - we tend to attack the views we do not support.

This sounds a bit like the Académie Francaise, why use one word when six or more would be better.

 

[colognehornet]

You certainly can. However if you look up the meaning:
noun
derogatory
noun: extremist; plural noun: extremists
a person who holds extreme political or religious views, especially one who advocates illegal, violent, or other extreme action
synonyms:fanatic, radical, zealot, fundamentalist, hardliner, dogmatist, bigot, diehard, militant, activist

It is clear the term is not usually neutral. Hard line brexit may be fair but extremist as the definition says is derogatory. It is perfectly possible to suggest that someone who supports overriding a nation's parliament and courts with a body or bodies they have little or no power over is themselves extremist.

It comes back to perception - we tend to attack the views we do not support.

Surely the use of the term 'extremist' changes from country to country, and from time to time, and depends on where the 'middle' is in any society. A person who feels like a 'duck out of water' in any given society could be labelled an extremist if they give vent to their views. So, by definition, an extremist is in a minority. You could be an 'extremist' in North Korea. Bearing in mind that the 'middle' of British politics has shifted dramatically to the right over the last 35 years - what could have been relatively standard then could appear as radical or extremist now.

 

[superhorns]

You are making some very sweeping statements here Leo. I am more of a communist now than I was at 18. Going back to the referendum - I do not think that Article 50 was actually mentioned during the run up to the referendum, and so many Brexiters probably thought we could get out over the weekend. At any rate not many of them would have bargained with us being in the uncertain state we are in 2 years later. As for the EU. repeating referenda until they get the right result - this is pure fantasy. They take something away, change it, and then have a new referendum on the revised version of something which is a completely different thing.

I and many Conservatives were communist sympathisers during the formative years. Due to the tiny amount of support communists can arouse at election time may I suggest life's experiences soon chances minds during adulthood. The UK communist movement realise they are so unpopular hence the need to infiltrate the Labour Party through the back door.

 

[colognehornet]

I and many Conservatives were communist sympathisers during the formative years. Due to the tiny amount of support communists can arouse at election time may I suggest life's experiences soon chances minds during adulthood. The UK communist movement realise they are so unpopular hence the need to infiltrate the Labour Party through the back door.

I think you need to go away and research what a Communist is SH.

 

[superhorns]

I think you need to go away and research what a Communist is SH.

I know you have seriously struggled to find an example that has actually worked. Was it some obscure sect in Spain that lasted a few weeks?

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

I wonder how the solicitor general feels tonight having agreed to a compromise with the people who were promised Tuesday night that would happen. After he signed it off he then gets overruled and a different un-agreed set of words is put in place. It really is time after two years for the government to stop arguing with itself.

 

[colognehornet]

I know you have seriously struggled to find an example that has actually worked. Was it some obscure sect in Spain that lasted a few weeks?

Analyse the word SH. Communism means rule by the commune - not by the state - if it meant that it would be called 'Statism'. It means that if the state exists at all then it is only as a confederation of communes which are self governing, and where the means of production are also at the disposal of the commune and not the state. A real Communist changes his immediate surroundings - he does not begin with the state, and its overthrow. You keep asking me to name a state where Communism has worked, but that is not my starting point, because I am not interested in taking over 'the state'.

 

[superhorns]

I wonder how the solicitor general feels tonight having agreed to a compromise with the people who were promised Tuesday night that would happen. After he signed it off he then gets overruled and a different un-agreed set of words is put in place. It really is time after two years for the government to stop arguing with itself.

To let parliament negotiate instead of the elected government is the surest way to get a bad deal from the EU, precisely what the remoaners are looking for. These odd Tory rebels are simply attempting to defy the will of the people. It is a pity the parliamentary arithmetic allows these nonentities their quirks to be listened to.