Off Topic The Politics Thread

[QPRNUTS]

It’s very closely aligned to the nature of the border though and in the context of a ‘hard’ Brexit. It would be interesting to see a similar poll with the question being ‘if the agreement outlined today goes through smoothly, how would you vote on a United Ireland?’. I’d guess there would be a large ‘not at the moment thanks’ majority, which there is (even amongst Catholics) if the question is asked ignoring Brexit.

Interesting though and shows how important the issue is to people.

Varadkar has said that a border poll would require more than a simple majority on both sides of the border to change the status quo. It’s easy to forget that it’s not just about those in the North wanting to join, but also those in the Republic wanting them in.

I can’t explain how important an
Issue this is for us here. Let me put it like this. My 30 minute drive to work takes me 6km through the North.
Don’t think anything has been actually solved just kicked down the road. The British guarantee can only mean one thing for me and that’s the UK staying in the single market. I just can’t see how it can work any other way.
The political situation in the north at the moment is finely balanced. There’s no actual majority. A vote based on religion at the moment would see the slightest Protestant majority at 51% to a catholic 49%. A vote before Brexit on NI joining the South would of had a no vote in the 60ish%. Interestingly, a recent vote in the south only had 74% voting in favour. It’s definitely not the right time now for a unification vote but it’s estimated that in the next 15 years catholics will be the ones with the slender majority.
The only issue I had with the DUP stance was that they think they speak for the entire north which they obviously don’t.

 

[durbar2003]

Wouldn't a United Ireland solve the whole problem? let the rest of the UK join in on a referendum.

 

[rangercol]

I can’t explain how important an
Issue this is for us here. Let me put it like this. My 30 minute drive to work takes me 6km through the North.
Don’t think anything has been actually solved just kicked down the road. The British guarantee can only mean one thing for me and that’s the UK staying in the single market. I just can’t see how it can work any other way.
The political situation in the north at the moment is finely balanced. There’s no actual majority. A vote based on religion at the moment would see the slightest Protestant majority at 51% to a catholic 49%. A vote before Brexit on NI joining the South would of had a no vote in the 60ish%. Interestingly, a recent vote in the south only had 74% voting in favour. It’s definitely not the right time now for a unification vote but it’s estimated that in the next 15 years catholics will be the ones with the slender majority.
The only issue I had with the DUP stance was that they think they speak for the entire north which they obviously don’t.

I don't think the UK is going to stay in the single market mate. If they do that would be one concession too far for me.

 

[Lawrence Jacoby]

I think the real powers have concluded that we will be staying in the market for as long as it takes. Again if anyone truly thinks that walking away will help the UK then they are simply stupid. The maths, the complications, the potential loss is far too great to make any nationalist happy for a few years

Transistion is the only answer

So in real terms the 52% got nothing like they voted for
Free movement is still allowed and people working in the U.K. ( the real workers) it looks to me will have 8 more years of full EU rights

Let’s wait until the trade stuff starts

Should become clear by then it looks bleak

Tell them to F off ... oh that worked !

37bn plus a lot more costs coming
Brilliant stuff

 

[Stroller]

I don't think the UK is going to stay in the single market mate. If they do that would be one concession too far for me.

It's the logical solution, Col. (and it's the will of the people, of course)

 

[sb_73]

I don't think the UK is going to stay in the single market mate. If they do that would be one concession too far for me.

I genuinely don’t want to pick holes in the progress that has, at last, been made, there is no joy in that. But there is a massive logical inconsistency in saying we want to keep the border with Ireland as now and at the same time include Northern Ireland in the U.K. leaving the Customs Union and Single Market. I think, but obviously don’t know, that we will stay in in all but name, and the ‘regulatory alignment’ stuff is about this. And it will be essential if we want services, especially financial services, included in the trade agreement.

In the Times today there was a bit about how the Canada Trade agreement with the EU is working. So far the Canadians have changed a multitude of their regulations to match the EU, and the EU has changed none of theirs because they don’t need to. It’s an unequal treaty, the EU is overpoweringly more important to Canada than vice versa. It won’t be quite so unbalanced with us, and at least there is no regulatory difference at the moment, and Ireland’s economic relationship with us is a massive plus, but I suspect that we will continue to adopt EU regulations wholesale without having a say in what they are.

So in terms of principle I fear we will both be disappointed. If I understood correctly, your prime (but not only) motivator in voting leave was for the U.K. to maximise its sovereignty, and I have always respected that as a logical position, while mine in voting remain was in maximising shared sovereignty (while admitting that the EU is a deeply imperfect model for this). The direction things are going will satisfy neither of these (though as my side lost the argument in the referendum, hard cheese me). But it might just work in the political world of no principles, and minimise the economic risks. But it may well feel like what we are engaged in now was a complete waste of time - we will be adopting EU rules, paying into the EU for years, referring to the ECJ for another ten years from now. Perhaps the only tangible change, apart from us not being in the room when decisions impacting on us are made, will be on immigration. Which may well have been the key thing for a lot of leave voters in the first place.

Sorry, used this to think things through a bit, and will probably change my mind on it soon.

 

[QPRNUTS]

I don't think the UK is going to stay in the single market mate. If they do that would be one concession too far for me.

Please

Col
I’m no politician or diplomat. But there is no other way. I think May has cleverly kicked the kan down the road. It will be somebody else’s problem in 5 years time.

 

[QPRNUTS]

I genuinely don’t want to pick holes in the progress that has, at last, been made, there is no joy in that. But there is a massive logical inconsistency in saying we want to keep the border with Ireland as now and at the same time include Northern Ireland in the U.K. leaving the Customs Union and Single Market. I think, but obviously don’t know, that we will stay in in all but name, and the ‘regulatory alignment’ stuff is about this. And it will be essential if we want services, especially financial services, included in the trade agreement.

In the Times today there was a bit about how the Canada Trade agreement with the EU is working. So far the Canadians have changed a multitude of their regulations to match the EU, and the EU has changed none of theirs because they don’t need to. It’s an unequal treaty, the EU is overpoweringly more important to Canada than vice versa. It won’t be quite so unbalanced with us, and at least there is no regulatory difference at the moment, and Ireland’s economic relationship with us is a massive plus, but I suspect that we will continue to adopt EU regulations wholesale without having a say in what they are.

So in terms of principle I fear we will both be disappointed. If I understood correctly, your prime (but not only) motivator in voting leave was for the U.K. to maximise its sovereignty, and I have always respected that as a logical position, while mine in voting remain was in maximising shared sovereignty (while admitting that the EU is a deeply imperfect model for this). The direction things are going will satisfy neither of these (though as my side lost the argument in the referendum, hard cheese me). But it might just work in the political world of no principles, and minimise the economic risks. But it may well feel like what we are engaged in now was a complete waste of time - we will be adopting EU rules, paying into the EU for years, referring to the ECJ for another ten years from now. Perhaps the only tangible change, apart from us not being in the room when decisions impacting on us are made, will be on immigration. Which may well have been the key thing for a lot of leave voters in the first place.

Sorry, used this to think things through a bit, and will probably change my mind on it soon.

Sb
I think you’ve hit several nails squarely on the head.
Hope to discuss this and Ollies inadequacies further over a few beverages in January.
I’ve said all along that I’m not the biggest fan of the EU. We’re heading for either further integration or a very difficult parting of the ways. I think many in Europe know how intrinsically we are linked to the UK and this frightened them. Literally, if one more country goes, it will fall. Funny enough, Ireland is the most likely. A serious move by the US now would sway opinion here.

 

[sb_73]

Sb
I think you’ve hit several nails squarely on the head.
Hope to discuss this and Ollies inadequacies further over a few beverages in January.
I’ve said all along that I’m not the biggest fan of the EU. We’re heading for either further integration or a very difficult parting of the ways. I think many in Europe know how intrinsically we are linked to the UK and this frightened them. Literally, if one more country goes, it will fall. Funny enough, Ireland is the most likely. A serious move by the US now would sway opinion here.

Let us know which game you are coming to. I am in Chicago weekend of 13/14 January, but will make it down any other time, for the beers and company and hopefully a game to feel good about.

I hope your government are making it abundantly clear to the EU and other EU countries just how closely linked the Irish and British economies are. There are some over here, primarily Boris Johnson, who say stuff like ‘’nothing will change because the arrangements with Ireland go back years before the EU’ conveniently ignoring the fact that we joined the EU at the same time and have never been tested with one in, one out, operating under different rules.

 

[QPRNUTS]

Brexit and the Irish border: How the deal was salvaged https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2017/1209/926089-brexit-negotiations/

 

[Lawrence Jacoby]

Please

Col
I’m no politician or diplomat. But there is no other way. I think May has cleverly kicked the kan down the road. It will be somebody else’s problem in 5 years time.

Exactly politicians work for themselves in the U.K. there is no fear while they are in office re the will of the people. They have no trouble in deceiving the people because they know the divide and the culture
Only in the US and the U.K. does this exist at this level. The divides are far more accute imo . Meanwhile due to legacy, pride and ignorance our nation has been over taken
The answer is to start again ... something I fully respect but not from a very weakened position.

We are limping around the monopoly board and our assets are old Kent road and Whitechapel and we complain that it’s not fair
And can we start a new game please and The Germans and French can’t play as they cheated

 

[kiwiqpr]

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[Star of David Bardsley]

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These pops at Labour are getting a bit dull given they are based on extremely little. Compared to the Tories they are a picture of unity and consistency.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

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Very good

No disrespect to WW and Strolls, but Labour are facing in every direction on Brexit (unlike the Lib Dems who can't pull their head from their a*se). Starmer wants the so called Vassall state option whereby we obey all the rules from Brussels indefinitely even though we won't have a say in making them, and in addition pay them billions a year for the privilege. Dianne Abbot also wants a 2nd referendum.

The Tories are at each others throats, but the scope of disagreement is far narrower and doesn't wave a white flag at the EU

 

[Stroller]

Very good

No disrespect to WW and Strolls, but Labour are facing in every direction on Brexit (unlike the Lib Dems who can't pull their head from their a*se). Starmer wants the so called Vassall state option whereby we obey all the rules from Brussels indefinitely even though we won't have a say in making them, and in addition pay them billions a year for the privilege. Dianne Abbot also wants a 2nd referendum.

The Tories are at each others throats, but the scope of disagreement is far narrower and doesn't wave a white flag at the EU

Constructive ambiguity, Goldie. Forgivable, I would say, in an opposition watching the governing party tear itself apart. The Tories are the ones who should be held in contempt for their selfish disregard for the welfare of the nation.

 

[sb_73]

Constructive ambiguity, Goldie. Forgivable, I would say, in an opposition watching the governing party tear itself apart. The Tories are the ones who should be held in contempt for their selfish disregard for the welfare of the nation.

Is that Tommy Cooper? Kudos.

Very good

No disrespect to WW and Strolls, but Labour are facing in every direction on Brexit (unlike the Lib Dems who can't pull their head from their a*se). Starmer wants the so called Vassall state option whereby we obey all the rules from Brussels indefinitely even though we won't have a say in making them, and in addition pay them billions a year for the privilege. Dianne Abbot also wants a 2nd referendum.

The Tories are at each others throats, but the scope of disagreement is far narrower and doesn't wave a white flag at the EU

both parties carry the full range of opinion from stay in to complete and utter break. Ken Clarke isn’t the only remainer in the Tory party, many of the current cabinet, including the prime minister, campaigned on that but apparently didn’t feel strongly enough about it to let it get in the way of their careers. Likewise many of the hard line Brexiters don’t feel strongly enough about it to decline to serve in a government which is now explicitly aiming for a soft Brexit, whatever meaningless red lines they have drawn in the past. They are politicians, what should we expect?

Seems to me that both Labour (or at least Starmer) and the Tories (or at least May) now want to satisfy the ‘will of the people’ in a way which doesn’t make us poorer, ie stay as close to the EU as possible. Making the whole thing a gigantic waste of time, energy and money.

 

[Stroller]

Is that Tommy Cooper? Kudos.

Yes, it's from the Museum of Comedy in Bloomsbury. We were there a few weeks ago for a show and I was very taken by the Tommy poster.

 

[kiwiqpr]

These pops at Labour are getting a bit dull given they are based on extremely little. Compared to the Tories they are a picture of unity and consistency.

should i come across any having a pop at the tories they will be posted as well

 

[Stroller]

Is that Tommy Cooper? Kudos.

both parties carry the full range of opinion from stay in to complete and utter break. Ken Clarke isn’t the only remainer in the Tory party, many of the current cabinet, including the prime minister, campaigned on that but apparently didn’t feel strongly enough about it to let it get in the way of their careers. Likewise many of the hard line Brexiters don’t feel strongly enough about it to decline to serve in a government which is now explicitly aiming for a soft Brexit, whatever meaningless red lines they have drawn in the past. They are politicians, what should we expect?

Seems to me that both Labour (or at least Starmer) and the Tories (or at least May) now want to satisfy the ‘will of the people’ in a way which doesn’t make us poorer, ie stay as close to the EU as possible. Making the whole thing a gigantic waste of time, energy and money.

The public won't accept a Brexit outcome that makes them poorer, according to polls. Good luck, suckers. You voted to restrict EU immigrants, which will damage the economy. You voted to tear up 50-odd international trade deals that we currently have via the EU in the hope that we can negotiate better ones for ourselves. Good luck again. The best we can hope for from this sorry process is a deal that makes us not too much worse off. Better off isn't an option.

 

[kiwiqpr]

so now along with all the other names they are suckers
the ones that havent died due to old age that is