Off Topic The Politics Thread

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Should the UK remain a part of the EU or leave?

  • Stay in

    Votes: 56 47.9%

  • Get out

    Votes: 61 52.1%
  • Total voters
    117
  • Poll closed .
Morning, Col. My observation about the interconnected world wasn't me making a point. It was just a reminder of the way things are for sovereign states in the 21st century. It needs to be remembered as we try to find our way once we're outside the EU.

I didn't say anything about the EU being a protectionist closed shop because one thing isn't related to the other. I agree it is, though. Is that a bad thing or a good thing?
 
sb_73 said:
I’m pretty sure the EU, with the full support of France and Germany, will say ‘great, your transitional period where you stay in the EU gives us plenty of time to do a trade deal, let’s get the rest of it - citizens, current account bill, Ireland - sorted first, as we have always been saying. By the way, the transitional deal may be dependant on us sorting these things’ The U.K. has been saying that these things are intrinsically linked with trade, but by kicking that back down the road, the German car exporters have another 2 years of current trading conditions. Looks to me that May/Davies have given up on the delaying tactic of ‘we can’t talk about x if it’s not linked to trade’ Think how much further down the road we might have been if the U.K. had accepted that the EU dictates the agenda from the off.

Given what Col and Ellers have said about May et al, it seems you may be the sole (contributing) Brexit supporter on here who thinks the Government is doing ok.
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On transition, the Ireland, citizen and exit-money issues should be resolvable. Talks, continuing next week, are about fine tuning. So a transition period of 2 years looks on the cards, and personally, I don't have a problem so long as it isn't extended a minute longer (Labour are talking of extending possibly 10 years or more, which is a clear attempt to deny democracy and stay in the EU in all but name).

You're right, the kick of the can down the road gives EU export industries and money-recipient states longer to assess the effects of Brexit. I believe the UK has to prepare for World Trade rules in 2021, and assume the EU won't compromise on free movement of people, which must be a deal breaker for the UK. Then pressure on the bureaucrats from within the EU will build, and a bespoke UK deal may just be possible. There's the issue of whether we keep EU regulations and standards (the Philip Hammond camp) for more than exports to the EU. Absolutely no reason why we should when trading with the rest of the world. We have to plough our own furrow, while being as reasonable as possible with the EU to smooth business.

Interesting today in Germany. Merkel a shoe-in, but will we see a return of the Far Right to the Bundestag for the first time since 1945...?
 
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GoldhawkRd said:
On transition, the Ireland, citizen and exit-money issues should be resolvable. Talks, continuing next week, are about fine tuning. So a transition period of 2 years looks on the cards, and personally, I don't have a problem so long as it isn't extended a minute longer (Labour are talking of extending possibly 10 years or more, which is a clear attempt to deny democracy and stay in the EU in all but name).

You're right, the kick of the can down the road gives EU export industries and money-recipient states longer to assess the effects of Brexit. I believe the UK has to prepare for World Trade rules in 2021, and assume the EU won't compromise on free movement of people, which must be a deal breaker for the UK. Then pressure on the bureaucrats from within the EU will build, and a bespoke UK deal may just be possible. There's the issue of whether we keep EU regulations and standards (the Philip Hammond camp) for more than exports to the EU. Absolutely no reason why we should when trading with the rest of the world. We have to plough our own furrow, while being as reasonable as possible with the EU to smooth business.

Interesting today in Germany. Merkel a shoe-in, but will we see a return of fascists to the Bundestag for the first time since 1945...?
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An indefinite transition period makes perfect sense, if you ask me. Saying two years and not a minute longer just moves the cliff-edge a little further away. The way the Tories are handling the process, it could well take 5 years or more.
 
Stroller said:
An indefinite transition period makes perfect sense, if you ask me. Saying two years and not a minute longer just moves the cliff-edge a little further away. The way the Tories are handling the process, it could well take 5 years or more.
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The can will be kicked down the road forever which will be expensive but cheaper than the alternative.
 
Stroller said:
An indefinite transition period makes perfect sense, if you ask me. Saying two years and not a minute longer just moves the cliff-edge a little further away. The way the Tories are handling the process, it could well take 5 years or more.
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I'd expect you'd to say that Strolls, because you're a Remainer. It's the Chuka Umunna position. But the whole point about the transition period is to get rid of the cliff edge. Nothing will be smooth as silk, but 2021 will be the year when we can trade unrestricted with the rest of the world.
 
QPR Oslo said:
The "can" is a massive iron weight pulling the UK down. Let it go, cancel the leave process now.
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That can't happen. The Mail brigade would blockade the roads with Mondeos.

We'll leave in name and pay **** knows what to de facto remain eventually unless something mad happens at the next election like a Labour SNP coalition and we end up with a second referendum.
 
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West WindsR said:
That can't happen. The Mail brigade would blockade the roads with Mondeos.

We'll leave in name and pay **** knows what to de facto remain eventually unless something mad happens at the next election like a Labour SNP coalition and we end up with a second referendum.
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You won’t get that with Labour unless it’s an SNP condition. Just listening to stuff from the Labour Party conference shows they are as hopelessly divided as the Tories. Corbyn et al are oddly in line with the old score ‘core support’, he hates EU because it would prevent him doing lots of socialist stuff, they hate it because of immigration. But they don’t like Corbyn. Meanwhile all these kids who think the sun shines out of Corbyn’s arse are actually very pro EU. So they are going to avoid talking about it.

Bad election result in Germany, The AFD has taken a major shift to the right, just about the same as UKIP now.
 
In passing, I came across a comment this morning that I don't have the time to find again and quote properly, but I like the sentiment and wanted to share it.

"Don't order people to respect the flag for fear of punishment. Make a country where everybody wants to do it".
 
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sb_73 said:
You won’t get that with Labour unless it’s an SNP condition. Just listening to stuff from the Labour Party conference shows they are as hopelessly divided as the Tories. Corbyn et al are oddly in line with the old score ‘core support’, he hates EU because it would prevent him doing lots of socialist stuff, they hate it because of immigration. But they don’t like Corbyn. Meanwhile all these kids who think the sun shines out of Corbyn’s arse are actually very pro EU. So they are going to avoid talking about it.

Bad election result in Germany, The AFD has taken a major shift to the right, just about the same as UKIP now.
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Labour have more positions on Brexit than the Kama Sutra - and impressively, they hold them all at the same time in a hopeless tangle of sweaty limbs. I saw Clive Lewis biting Caroline Flint's calf muscles yesterday, and it wasn't a pretty sight.

The AfD makes UKIP look like the Samaritans, and unlike UKIP, have seats in their Parliament, possibly as many as 80-100. Frightening and entirely predictable after Merkel's agreement to uncontrolled mass immigration
 
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Laura Kuhnsberg, the journalist, needs a bodyguard to attend the Labour Party Conference after threats of violence. There's something deeply troubling about the vile, misogynist thugs behind Corbyn and McDonnell - yet these supporters of the IRA seem entirely relaxed about it.
 
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GoldhawkRd said:
Labour have more positions on Brexit than the Kama Sutra - and impressively, they hold them all at the same time in a hopeless tangle of sweaty limbs. I saw Clive Lewis biting Caroline Flint's calf muscles yesterday, and it wasn't a pretty sight.

The AfD makes UKIP look like the Samaritans, and unlike UKIP, have seats in their Parliament, possibly as many as 80-100. Frightening and entirely predictable after Merkel's agreement to uncontrolled mass immigration
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Are you frightened of them because they are right wing and German? Their policies seem to echo lots of what you have posted on here:
Closed, closely controlled borders to prevent migrants entering, stricter asylum rules
Anti € and federalist, centralising EU
Anti multiculturalism, banning burka, vetting imams, ‘moderate’ Muslims welcome
What do you disagree with?
 
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sb_73 said:
Are you frightened of them because they are right wing and German? Their policies seem to echo lots of what you have posted on here:
Closed, closely controlled borders to prevent migrants entering, stricter asylum rules
Anti € and federalist, centralising EU
Anti multiculturalism, banning burka, vetting imams, ‘moderate’ Muslims welcome
What do you disagree with?
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They provide an official home for Neo-Nazis ( and there are a growing number in Germany, particularly from the East), those that will excuse Hitler and deny the Holocaust. Yes, far right in Germany does unsettle me. The fact that I agree with some of their more reasonable demands (voted for by average though disillusioned citizens) does not mean I don't fear that there's something darker beneath the surface. I've not seen any AfD leader welcome moderate Muslims. They appear to call for a blanket ban on mosques. It's a much more extreme party than UKIP (and personally, I've never voted for UKIP anyway even though I agreed with their policies on the EU). Of course, if Anne-Marie Waters wins the UKIP leadership, we may see a move towards AfD style policies - and Farage and Banks may start a new party to fill the gap.
 
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GoldhawkRd said:
They provide an official home for Nazis ( and there are a growing number in Germany, particularly from the East), those that will excuse Hitler and deny the Holocaust. Yes, far right in Germany does unsettle me. The fact that I agree with some of their more reasonable demands (voted for by average though disillusioned citizens) does not mean I don't fear that there's something darker beneath the surface. I've not seen any AfD leader welcome moderate Muslims. They appear to call for a blanket ban on mosques. It's a much more extreme party than UKIP (and personally, I've never voted for UKIP anyway even though I agreed with their policies on the EU). Of course, if Anne-Marie Waters wins the UKIP leadership, we may see a move towards AfD style policies - and Farage and Banks may start a new party to fill the gap.
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Well the good news is that although 13% of German voters went for the AFD, 87% didn’t. And I don’t believe that 13% of Germans are neo Nazis, just disillusioned, lost and angry. As always the areas with the lowest levels of immigration voted most strongly for the anti immigrant party. The downside of proportional representation (which I support, because I like coalition government when done in a grown up way) is that extreme parties get represented. That’s democracy. I think the AFD want to ban the call to prayer, not mosques per se, but they are of course a bunch of ****s. I’d love to be able to vote purely on policy not personality but sadly these things go hand in hand and Gauland’s personality is toxic at best.

I’m not sure what the gap is between the right wing of the Tory party and UKIP, but I’m pretty sure that Farage and Banks are pining for the limelight, so will do something to be the centre of attention again. I notice Nige has dyed his hair and had Botox/cosmetic work done, so he obviously wants to look good. Apparently he went to Germany for the procedures.
 
sb_73 said:
Well the good news is that although 13% of German voters went for the AFD, 87% didn’t. And I don’t believe that 13% of Germans are new Nazis, just disillusioned, lost and angry. As always the areas with the lowest levels of immigration voted most strongly for the anti immigrant party. The downside of proportional representation (which I support, because I like coalition government when done in a grown up way) is that extreme parties get represented. That’s democracy. I think the AFD want to ban the call to prayer, not mosques per se.

I’m not sure what the gap is between the right wing of the Tory party and UKIP, but I’m pretty sure that Farage and Banks are pining for the limelight, so will do something to be the centre of attention again. I notice Nige has dyed his hair and had Botox/cosmetic work done, so he obviously wants to look good. Apparently he went to Germany for the procedures.
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No, of course 13% aren't Nazis - as you say, disillusioned and angry. BBC reported the AfD wanted a ban on mosques yesterday - today, they have revised that to banning the foreign funding of mosques.

I have as much interest in Nigel Farage's cosmetic surgery as I have in Anne Soubry's gynecological investigations - I try not to think about either.
 
The irony it seems on Brexit is that we leave Europe costing us billions for the next two generations ay least and Europe reforms itself anyway.

Political landscapes in Europe seem to heading towards change. We may even want to rejoin Europe in ten years as i see it

I haven't changed my mind from day one. I am just not certain that we can reinvent ourselves as a country without a massive change in culture

we could start by making sure a house costs the same anywhere in the UK ... go compare:

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-47791530.html

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-61080592.html

Both houses not for me but the price to dress them in tasteless ****e in the same throughout the UK
 
Lawrence Jacoby said:
The irony it seems on Brexit is that we leave Europe costing us billions for the next two generations ay least and Europe reforms itself anyway.

Political landscapes in Europe seem to heading towards change. We may even want to rejoin Europe in ten years as i see it

I haven't changed my mind from day one. I am just not certain that we can reinvent ourselves as a country without a massive change in culture

we could start by making sure a house costs the same anywhere in the UK ... go compare:

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-47791530.html

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-61080592.html

Both houses not for me but the price to dress them in tasteless ****e in the same throughout the UK
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Youll never get price parity because the employment landscape isnt a level playing field, and to take your example if the same house costs the same in Haywards Heath as in Wigan, nobody would live in Wigan...
 
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