Claude Puel - Gone!.............Confirmed.

[ImpSaint]

I would like to ask Ralph and Les one question: what was the minimum expectation placed on Claude when you appointed him?

Probably about where he has us in terms of position however I expect that he is way off how they want us to play to achieve that position.

 

[ImpSaint]

How can you claim the likes of spurs can compete financially with Madrid or Barca? That's absurd. Spurs, Liverpool and arsenal don't have a single player on £200k a week. Ronaldo earns £350k a week AFTER TAX. United are the only team as rich as Madrid and barca, City and Chelsea aren't too far behind.

Did you miss my comment over tax/illegalities? How much is Ronaldo's gross? Is it much more than Rooney's gross? Is it less? And how much debt do Madrid have?

You are arguing here not about football but about Spanish corruption.

What are A Madrid's top earners? Do they get the same deal as R Madrid players? How does their gross compare to UK's? A Madrid are quite obviously an Everton"esque" side that managed it one year and are always on the skirts of the top 2 for the other years.

 

[Beef]

Did you miss my comment over tax/illegalities? How much is Ronaldo's gross? Is it much more than Rooney's gross? Is it less? And how much debt do Madrid have?

You are arguing here not about football but about Spanish corruption.

What are A Madrid's top earners? Do they get the same deal as R Madrid players? How does their gross compare to UK's? A Madrid are quite obviously an Everton"esque" side that managed it one year and are always on the skirts of the top 2 for the other years.

Spanish government give Madrid a loan each time they need money. I think they have a debt of about €700million or something mad like that. But have the loan at 0% interest, yeah it's corruption.

 

[SoriaSaints]

I saw this article a while back about Monaco:

http://www.skysports.com/football/n...nd-monaco-in-the-champions-league-semi-finals

Monaco in Leonardo Jardim's first season in his first two seasons were criticised for being boring and not scoring enough goals. Remind you of anyone? Now they are being praised for playing some of they best football in Europe.

Like Monaco a couple of years ago the main criticism here is boring football but I would be surprised if Puel got sacked for boring football and I would also be surprised if Puel hadn't told Les and the board his plans and what to expect on the pitch citing Monaco as an example. If short term boring football is the price to pay for longer term success with attractive football I suspect the club would be willing to pay that.

From a football perspective it hasn't in the end been a bad season for Saints, 8th in the League with a cup final for Saints is pretty good. Mistakes have been made but not all of them have been Puel's fault. This season feels like a transitional one. Not the kind where it is used as an excuse for a bad season but one where the players have new demands placed upon them and they are trying to adapt.

Point of this post being if Puel has outlined a plan on the line of what has happened at Monaco to Les and the board then I doubt he will get sacked.

All said and done though if I paid £500 for a season ticket and got boring football then I would be pretty miffed and would definately have a right to complain.

 

[Beef]

I saw this article a while back about Monaco:

http://www.skysports.com/football/n...nd-monaco-in-the-champions-league-semi-finals

Monaco in Leonardo Jardim's first season in his first two seasons were criticised for being boring and not scoring enough goals. Remind you of anyone? Now they are being praised for playing some of they best football in Europe.

Like Monaco a couple of years ago the main criticism here is boring football but I would be surprised if Puel got sacked for boring football and I would also be surprised if Puel hadn't told Les and the board his plans and what to expect on the pitch citing Monaco as an example. If short term boring football is the price to pay for longer term success with attractive football I suspect the club would be willing to pay that.

From a football perspective it hasn't in the end been a bad season for Saints, 8th in the League with a cup final for Saints is pretty good. Mistakes have been made but not all of them have been Puel's fault. This season feels like a transitional one. Not the kind where it is used as an excuse for a bad season but one where the players have new demands placed upon them and they are trying to adapt.

Point of this post being if Puel has outlined a plan on the line of what has happened at Monaco to Les and the board then I doubt he will get sacked.

All said and done though if I paid £500 for a season ticket and got boring football then I would be pretty miffed and would definately have a right to complain.

He's 99.999999% gone. Only some random act of a random god or superhero can save him.

 

[ImpSaint]

Spanish government give Madrid a loan each time they need money. I think they have a debt of about €700million or something mad like that. But have the loan at 0% interest, yeah it's corruption.

So similar to Man U's debt when they were taken over, that they have virtually paid back now?

 

[Beef]

So similar to Man U's debt when they were taken over that they have virtually paid back now?

Worse then Utds as the goes up depending on rates etc. Utd's debt is £570m I think. But Madrid's debt is all from wages and player buys, with no interest and no time limit to pay it back. It's dodgy as hell.

 

[Schad]

Worse then Utds as the goes up depending on rates etc. Utd's debt is £570m I think. But Madrid's debt is all from wages and player buys, with no interest and no time limit to pay it back. It's dodgy as hell.

Real Madrid does have a massive cash stockpile, which lowers their net debt quite a bit. I'd still categorize Utd's as the dodgiest debt in football, simply because the Glazers also keep paying themselves out substantial annual dividends rather than further reducing it.

 

[Ronnie Hotdog (MLsfc)]

Did you miss my comment over tax/illegalities? How much is Ronaldo's gross? Is it much more than Rooney's gross? Is it less? And how much debt do Madrid have?

You are arguing here not about football but about Spanish corruption.

What are A Madrid's top earners? Do they get the same deal as R Madrid players? How does their gross compare to UK's? A Madrid are quite obviously an Everton"esque" side that managed it one year and are always on the skirts of the top 2 for the other years.

I said United are about equal?

But you simply can't say all of the top 6 in England can compete financially with the top Spanish teams. No way could spurs pay someone 300k a week or pay £90m for a player. Even arsenal can't afford those sorts of things. It isn't solely because of corruption, it's because they are the biggest clubs in the world alongside United and have huge global revenue streams.

 

[saintlyhero]

I think you miss a point here and Schad can feel free to correct me but this whole concept of English teams falling back from the European teams is very misguided. Our top teams are 6+. Spain's top teams are now 2 (with AM as an extra here and there.)

This is how the Prem was before Chelsea with Man U and Arsenal being streets ahead and PL teams dominating the champions league each year. An era where when one of these teams would come to play Saints (at Saints) with their reserves albeit with a couple of 1st 11.

The reason English teams are struggling in Europe is because of how strong the English league is. You can't go anywhere with your second team anymore because of Europe in mid week.

Our top 6 is Spain's top 2. Any team in that top 6 can compete £ for £ with those 2 if they really wanted to (less illegal tax or agent/3rd party dealings.)

So 7th/8th in this league is quite literally the same as 3rd/4th (occasional winner) in their league. The fact that their top 2 can keep Spain's CL quota at 4 whereas we are a 6 top club fighting for the same 4 is what is the difference here. If we accounted for their 4th place (results+quality) and equated that down the PL we would end up having 10 PL teams in the CL (happy days.)

It is a misnomer to look at European results and state that the PL is not as good as it was. The PL is stronger than it was and players cannot be given as much rest time as they were because their next PL opposition is vastly stronger than it was and most definitely stronger than most European team that they will face. We will never see (other than late season Mourinho style resting at the moment of a side not in contention) a top 2 side going away with 1 or 2 first 11 in the starting lineup.

I really don't think their is any serious evidence to back up this view that the premier league is so much stronger than the Spanish.

Sevilla won the Europa league four seasons straight. Athletico have been consistently near the top for multiple seasons now. Manchester United limped past Celta Vigo who are 13th in La Liga

 

[ImpSaint]

Worse then Utds as the goes up depending on rates etc. Utd's debt is £570m I think. But Madrid's debt is all from wages and player buys, with no interest and no time limit to pay it back. It's dodgy as hell.

I Think another problem is that Utd's debt was coming down pretty substantially until Van Gaal and Mourinho and Man U's debt despite those 2 managers is less than it was when the Glazers took over. Despite "our" hatred of Man U they "had" been bring that debt down.

I also don;t like to look at "official" debts when neither Barcelona or Real are included in the top 10 despite them being in more debt than Man U in reality.

Officially we have the following:
Top 10 clubs by debt
1. Manchester United - €536m
2. Benfica - €336m
3. Inter - €306m
4. Valencia - €285m
5. QPR - €279m
6. AC Milan - €249m
7. CSKA Moscow - €224m
8. Galatasaray - €222m
9. Juventus - €209m
10. Roma - €208m

The reality is that Barcelona AND Real are above at least above 2nd in that list.

 

[Beef]

Real Madrid does have a massive cash stockpile, which lowers their net debt quite a bit. I'd still categorize Utd's as the dodgiest debt in football, simply because the Glazers also keep paying themselves out substantial annual dividends rather than further reducing it.

I would call the Royal family giving you a no interest loan is dodgier. One is private dodgy loan, one is a country dodgy loan...

 

[ImpSaint]

I said United are about equal?

But you simply can't say all of the top 6 in England can compete financially with the top Spanish teams. No way could spurs pay someone 300k a week or pay £90m for a player. Even arsenal can't afford those sorts of things. It isn't solely because of corruption, it's because they are the biggest clubs in the world alongside United and have huge global revenue streams.

My point is that Real can't afford to pay £300k a week (in hand/after tax) or £90m a player but they do. How much would the gross for a £300k (after tax) a week player be in the UK?

Is Rooney's (in hand) wage more than Ronaldos in gross?

 

[Beef]

I Think another problem is that Utd's debt was coming down pretty substantially until Van Gaal and Mourinho and Man U's debt despite those 2 managers is less than it was when the Glazers took over. Despite "our" hatred of Man U they "had" been bring that debt down.

I also don;t like to look at "official" debts when neither Barcelona or Real are included in the top 10 despite them being in more debt than Man U in reality.

Officially we have the following:
Top 10 clubs by debt
1. Manchester United - €536m
2. Benfica - €336m
3. Inter - €306m
4. Valencia - €285m
5. QPR - €279m
6. AC Milan - €249m
7. CSKA Moscow - €224m
8. Galatasaray - €222m
9. Juventus - €209m
10. Roma - €208m

The reality is that Barcelona AND Real are above at least above 2nd in that list.

Barca's debt is €300m. But they actually pay and have to actually pay it back, it's why they are starting to get a little worried about increasing wages. Messi wants a increase and will get one. But I can see Suarez leaving soon.

Madrid will carry in spending.

 

[Ronnie Hotdog (MLsfc)]

My point is that Real can't afford to pay £300k a week or £90m a player but they do. How much would the gross for a £300k a week player be in the UK?

They can afford it. They have the 3rd highest revenue in world football - hundreds of millions more than the likes of arsenal and spurs. In the same way United can - Ibrahimovic is apparently on £300k+.

 

[ImpSaint]

I would call the Royal family giving you a no interest loan is dodgier. One is private dodgy loan, one is a country dodgy loan...

And the Glaziers had been paying that debt down. I seem to remember it beign near £700m at the beginning but being down to £200m a couple of years ago.

 

[Beef]

And the Glaziers had been paying that debt down. I seem to remember it beign near £700m at the beginning but being down to £200m a couple of years ago.

Yep. Them taking money out despite not putting any money in is bad. But Madrid's loan is just plain corruption.

 

[ImpSaint]

They can afford it. They have the 3rd highest revenue in world football - hundreds of millions more than the likes of arsenal and spurs. In the same way United can - Ibrahimovic is apparently on £300k+.

They cant afford it. They just do because they can accumulate debt and have it written down by their favourable tax friendly/government friendly situation. That is corruption not market.
If Ibrahimivic is on £300k+ is that net or gross? Seeing as we are talking Ronaldo being net. £300k a week net in the UK is going to be above £500k a week (by the books at least.)

 

[Ronnie Hotdog (MLsfc)]

They cant afford it. They just do because they can accumulate debt and have it written down by their favourable tax friendly/government friendly situation. That is corruption not market.
If Ibrahimivic is on £300k+ is that net or gross? Seeing as we are talking Ronaldo being net.

Ronaldo is the only one on 300k after tax so possibly a bad example. The other top earners such as Bale are on 300k before tax and so is Ibrahimovic.

 

[Saints FC 76]

I hate the way the media and some of our fans think we should be happy with 8th/mid table given the progress we've made. It's like saying we should never aspire to be better or try and push the boundaries, however hard it may be. It's not a bad season, but wanting to be better is no bad thing.

This is not to say I want Puel gone, but just in general we should always aspire for better and not settle for 'well it's okay for a club like us.'

PS about the striker situation last summer, I distinctly remember Claude saying he was happy with the three options.