The Breakfast Debate

  • Please bear with us on the new site integration and fixing any known bugs over the coming days. If you can not log in please try resetting your password and check your spam box. If you have tried these steps and are still struggling email [email protected] with your username/registered email address
  • Log in now to remove adverts - no adverts at all to registered members!
Doc said:
If GFH shares were worth say £5m but Cellino didnt hav ethe money to buy the shares, he gives them a debenture based upon a valuation of said shares in 5 years time which could be £8m. Simple and easy and gets the deal done. Doesnt really help a new owner though if he has to get permission of GFH for big decisions.

End
Click to expand...

But is it a debenture? Companies house show it as a variable charge on the club, that is still outstanding, and that's how it was reported back when Cellino struck the deal. Where I do agree with doc is, as I remember, the club could not make significant decisions to increase the value of the assets without either agreement of GFH or settling of charge in full. So the club can't buy back ER until one of those options is agreed. GFH are not shown in anyway as owners / stakeholders of Leeds United.
 
This is what we know so far in the last 24 hours.

Ben Mansford (Chief executive) has left the club.

You must log in or register to see images



West Ham Managing Director Angus Kinnear has quit the hammers and is replacing Mansford.

Its like a jigsaw puzzle. They just have to put all the bits into place.
 
ellandback said:
This is what we know so far in the last 24 hours.

Ben Mansford (Chief executive) has left the club.

You must log in or register to see images



West Ham Managing Director Angus Kinnear has quit the hammers and is replacing Mansford.

Its like a jigsaw puzzle. They just have to put all the bits into place.
Click to expand...

Another of Cellino's men replaced, suggests despite the silence that Radz is almost in place.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Marcos Barber and ellandback
Leedsoflondon said:
But is it a debenture? Companies house show it as a variable charge on the club, that is still outstanding, and that's how it was reported back when Cellino struck the deal. Where I do agree with doc is, as I remember, the club could not make significant decisions to increase the value of the assets without either agreement of GFH or settling of charge in full. So the club can't buy back ER until one of those options is agreed. GFH are not shown in anyway as owners / stakeholders of Leeds United.
Click to expand...

Having looked it up, debenture, variable / floating charge are pretty much the same thing.
 
Doc said:
Some of you may be aware that some top golf clubs dont have normal memberships. If you want to join the club you have to buy a debenture then pay an anual membership fee. The debenture is owned by the member & he is then a part owner of the golf club and he has voting rights. If he leaves he sells his debenture at the going rate based upon club valuation
Click to expand...

The MIL has a debenture for wimbledon and the LTA. She gets to vote on items of capital expenditure ( the new roof and extended court one) and is a secured creditor, oh and she get tickets for the poxy tennis but has to pay for them. In effect she has loaned them £30k for the use of two seats and a christmas card. But if they sell up she gets a share of the sale value that greatly exceeds the £30k.

As soon as she pegs it we will be flogging them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Whitejock
gombawn said:
You are just letting your dislike of LL blind you in this matter. Maybe TC and doc were clearer and concise but LL was more accurate. Get a grip its TC we are talking about!!!
Gfh do not own any shares in leeds and without seeing the specific terms of the denture it is just a loan secured against some assets which it appears in this instance becomes immediately repeatable upon a change of ownership. And that last bit is speculation.
Click to expand...
As I recall, the only person who mentioned GFH owning shares was Mighty, and that was several days before LL's post, and knowing Mighty, tongue severely lodged in cheek.

We've already had a couple of excellently concise and accurate descriptions of the situation, and everyone probably now knows all they want to know about it - which is that we don't really know anything at all about the debenture! (as you've touched on above).

I read LL's dissertation on the subject, assuming he had something to add. 20 minutes later, I discovered that not only did he not have anything to add, but he simply repeated all that had been established before, but managed to take part of my life that I cannot claim back - which is a concern at my age.
 
  • Like
Reactions: OLOF, Leedsoflondon and FORZA LEEDS
Whitejock said:
As I recall, the only person who mentioned GFH owning shares was Mighty, and that was several days before LL's post, and knowing Mighty, tongue severely lodged in cheek.

We've already had a couple of excellently concise and accurate descriptions of the situation, and everyone probably now knows all they want to know about it - which is that we don't really know anything at all about the debenture! (as you've touched on above).

I read LL's dissertation on the subject, assuming he had something to add. 20 minutes later, I discovered that not only did he not have anything to add, but he simply repeated all that had been established before, but managed to take part of my life that I cannot claim back - which is a concern at my age.
Click to expand...

As is you continuing to quote the ****er and thus wasting my time too. Ffs sort it out.
 
  • Like
Reactions: FORZA LEEDS and Whitejock
Whitejock said:
Thanks for that, TC. I haven't seen it before. Will read it at my leisure as I suspect I might skip swathes if I try it in a one-er. :D I did scroll down a bit and the word 'Debenture' was sitting there clear as a bell, so that settles a skirmish I noticed earlier. :D
Click to expand...

No probs Jock - thought you had seen it - most of it is the usual spiel, but there are some interesting bits <ok>

As i said the other day, Cellino must have been vert desperate to agree to all of that!!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Whitejock
gombawn said:
Can't open the doc. But I like your wrong again remark. I challenge you to point out a post where I was wrong before. I will link 100 incorrect posts of yours for every 1 of mine you can find.

Q tc disappearing til august
Click to expand...

Well I just found this one for a start ;)
& it's quite funny how I can open it, Doc can open it, Jock can open it, but clever you can't <laugh>
 
  • Like
Reactions: Whitejock
A pal posted this on FB. Made me laugh. Enjoy ...

EDIT: Seems you've got to click on 'watch on Facebook' to see it. Sorry!

You must log in or register to see media
 
LeedsLover said:
You must log in or register to see images
Click to expand...
Presumably you've read the post I'm referring to if that's your reaction. Now you know how we feel meandering through your facile dissertations.

Ever thought of trying to answer a question that's put to you for once - minus the usual obfuscating drivel?
 
Doc said:
LL needs to read up on debentures ffs. GFH may own no shares but they OWN a portion of the club. The debenture is a vehicle for purchasing shares but at a price in the future. It allowed Cellino to take 100% of the club on paper but not in reality as GFH still own a part & as part of the debenture agreement they still have voting rights as any Major boatd decisions which may affect the valuation of the club must be agreed with GFH. Hope that makes sense, so they dont own shares but have a bit of paper much more powerful than shares. They have budgeted for a certain price in 5 years time but Radz wants them to accept a price now, theres the stumbling block.

Radz is powerless due to GFH debenture simple as that
Click to expand...

Doc, no malice pal,

but debentures are all different, their value depends on the details and agreements agreed to by 2 or more parties.

I mentioned I didn't profess to know the details of the debenture, my comments were based on how some were speculating about how much power GFH had over LUFC, and yet, as Gombawn mentioned, no one seems to have read the full details of the debenture between LUFC and GFH.

GFH own no part of LUFC, you have already agreed to this in one of my other replies to you. As far as I'm aware, the debenture allows GFH to seize assets if the agreed loan is in default by LUFC, same as any bank.

I believe GFH have no voting rights in the boardroom as they have no one on the board.

As I understand it, based on what some others have written, money owed to GFH is paid off every year till 2029, or, if we were promoted to PL, or, if full ownership, or controlling ownership of LUFC changes hands. GFH have taken steps to be paid in full the full amount of the loan owed once Radz acquires full ownership; which they have a right to do if it is in the agreement.

GFH don't have the right to demand more than the agreed loan as per the details and agreements set down in the debenture, again, seems no one knows the full details of the agreement.

As far as I'm aware, if GFH go after an asset that is valued greater than the loan owed then chances are it'll be a long court case and they'll need a lot of luck.

As Adler owns ER, and someone else owns TA, and as Cellino said, LUFC don't even own the seats (may have changed) what assets are left for GFH to take if the loan is in default?............. they can't touch the players, but Leeds can sell the players to raise the money to pay off the loan............will they go for putting LUFC into liquidation?

As I previously mentioned, Radz and his solicitors / backing group/s would've been made aware of the situation with GFH when Radz purchased 50% of shares from Cellino.

One of the most asked questions by Leeds fans is, "when is Cellino going to buy back ER" I think that question has been answered.......:emoticon-0148-yes:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Eireleeds1 and Marcos Barber
LeedsLover said:
Doc, no malice pal,

but debentures are all different, their value depends on the details and agreements agreed to by 2 or more parties.

I mentioned I didn't profess to know the details of the debenture, my comments were based on how some were speculating about how much power GFH had over LUFC, and yet, as Gombawn mentioned, no one seems to have read the full details of the debenture between LUFC and GFH.

GFH own no part of LUFC, you have already agreed to this in one of my other replies to you. As far as I'm aware, the debenture allows GFH to seize assets if the agreed loan is in default by LUFC, same as any bank.

I believe GFH have no voting rights in the boardroom as they have no one on the board.

As I understand it, based on what some others have written, money owed to GFH is paid off every year till 2029, or, if we were promoted to PL, or, if full ownership, or controlling ownership of LUFC changes hands. GFH have taken steps to be paid in full the full amount of the loan owed once Radz acquires full ownership; which they have a right to do if it is in the agreement.

GFH don't have the right to demand more than the agreed loan as per the details and agreements set down in the debenture, again, seems no one knows the full details of the agreement.

As far as I'm aware, if GFH go after an asset that is valued greater than the loan owed then chances are it'll be a long court case and they'll need a lot of luck.

As Adler owns ER, and someone else owns TA, and as Cellino said, LUFC don't even own the seats (may have changed) what assets are left for GFH to take if the loan is in default?............. they can't touch the players, but Leeds can sell the players to raise the money to pay off the loan............will they go for putting LUFC into liquidation?

As I previously mentioned, Radz and his solicitors / backing group/s would've been made aware of the situation with GFH when Radz purchased 50% of shares from Cellino.

One of the most asked questions by Leeds fans is, "when is Cellino going to buy back ER" I think that question has been answered.......:emoticon-0148-yes:
Click to expand...
Interesting post that LL and there is genuinely no malice in my reply because I know you like Cellino (sometimes with blind faith) and I don't (also sometimes blindly).

What your post does highlight is the stupidity of Cellinos careless approach to buying the club in the first place with lack of due dilligance and / or going into partnership (rather than buying outright) GFH who he evidently didn't know much about.
 
TC (Lovely Geezer) said:
Well I just found this one for a start ;)
& it's quite funny how I can open it, Doc can open it, Jock can open it, but clever you can't <laugh>
Click to expand...
Nope I'm too stupid to open it. I'm too stupid to get the app that opens it. I was going to ask You to tell me what's in it but then I would have to believe the opposite to be true

Maybe wj can tell me when he s got through it
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back