Show me wear he swore or verbally abused you and I will ! but please bear in in mind I cant sit here for much longer as lunch break is over!!!
Further more NNW I havent taken sides ! I am wanting you to calm down and any others , I want to take the heat out of this , as mentioned I dont want to to lock this thread , but I will if we just have people swearing at one another!
Aberdeen - I am not sure really you will find a lot of difference between any of us. My argument would be that violence breeds violence and that putting in a knee jerk reaction to deal with these hooligans could be a case of the medicine being worse than the cure. As a society we have gone a bit wrong. What we need though is to step back and re-examine our values and also our penal system to see what we can do to improve things. Without wishing to widen the topic I would say that the killer in Norway was attempting exactly that in his actions - he tried to make Norway (the people not our Mod) react against his violence in an undemocratic way but instead the good people of Norway have not given him that respect. When a large percentage of our young people feel alienated from society how can we hope to make that society prosper. Over the top reactions against them may satisfy the Daily Mail reader but will not help build a better society.
Okay, I'll rephrase Norway. Firstly, recognise that my language was against the decision not to moderate even-handedly, not against you personally. Secondly delete his post. Thirdly, delete HornArt's post slamming me for a comment that you decided to delete. Fourthly, delete my response to the soon-to-be-deleted comment, and subsequent commentary of it. Then we can move on. If you do not, then you are taking sides. And you're one to get all high and mighty about expletives, given the on-off abuse you were giving Leo in the early days.
Theo you make some good points. Norway - please don't over-react - look at some other sites and you will see far worse than on here - it is an emotive debate and you have done well in leaving the substance of NNW's good points - he is genuinely angry and we Watford fans are big enough and intelligent enough to realise that and not want censorship as a solution. Anyone who does not want to follow a heated debate can ignore this thread - but you cannot ignore the Nest as easily - this is the place for this - it is contained and a genuine set of opinions. I doubt you will see much demand from anyone to close or suspend this thread.
NNW - the post was actually not slamming you but supporting you - your comment undid some of your earlier good comment - there was nothing in the response that would justify deletion. Look back - you have made some good points that remain even after Norway's amendments
I am not sure how I have got drawn into this thread as I have been away for a week and popped back to see what was happening but everyone seems to have got really angry at each other
He's got a good point there Norway - you were vehemently opposed to censorship I seem to remember lol
Back on the issue itself - I am not convinced that these particular riots ARE connected with deprivation in society - they seem to be bored youths having fun by smashing things up and looting.
Oh - and in case anyone does not know the maximum penalty for arson and for murder are Life Impirsonment. It would only take to arrest someone fast and charge them and get them sentenced to Life and you might see a quick reduction in those carrying out these offenses
The problem is the courts never convict as they should. They impose stupid sentencing for light offences and let real criminals off. Worst offence 90+ on the motorway, but its ok to cause criminal damage, its mad.
This is a result of several factors. As i explained in the nest it started with peaceful protests over the killing of an armed gangster and then a few twerps took it too far and this is what we get when people get swept up and jump on the band wagon. Yes we know the punishment, but these arent working. The problem is you cant just arrest someone and charge them fast, that breaches article 6 ECHR- right to a fair and proper trial. Therefore the police have to follow procedure and the letter of the law. Also if you arrest people it only causes more anger. The police are in a no-win situation and are doing a damned fine job or containing the offenders and keeping people safe.
But Life never means life these days. What needs to happen is exemplary sentences handed down even for 1st offences. Instead we will get the hand-wringing, cord wearing, Guardian reading liberals pleading that the poor little dears are misunderstood and were never breast feed by their mothers. Reality is that it is the careers of these soft-**** Liberals to do this - they work in Social Work, Charities, Youth Centres etc and if all these scum were locked up they would have no "clients" and thus no job! There is nothing to stop the Police arresting and charging these scum and then holding them in remand. Hopefully with the jails full in London, they will be shipped out to remote towns and cities - a couple of months in Dartmoor or Parkhurst would get them thinking.
You might - but I doubt it. Firstly, the term 'life imprisonment' is a misnomer - not many are actually sentenced for the term of their life. Yes it is the mandatory sentence for murder, but the duration of the sentence is normally set by the judge - only a few get the 'whole life order', the rest seem to be out after a relatively small period of time. Secondly, as you pointed out yourself, the perpetrators of these riots appear to be bored youths. A life imprisonment sentence can only be applied if the defendant is 21 or over. TV coverage up here may have an age bias, but the vast majority of rioters seen in news reports here certainly appear younger than that. Thirdly, you've fallen into the age old trap of assuming that whatever sentence is handed down is actually seen as a deterrent. One of the catch cries of those seeking to abolish capital punishment back in the 60's was just that - the death sentence wasn't acting as a deterrent, conveniently ignoring the principle of 'punishment fitting the crime'. Not to mention that prison time certainly hadn't proven to be a deterrent either at that point in time and has since proven to be even less of one. My earlier comment about 'throwing them out of planes' was made partially in jest - but I am an avid supporter of capital punishment. My viewpoint is that we simply cannot have an acceptable society where the legislators worry about the rights of criminals and hand down laughable sentences, whilst the criminals laugh in their faces and do as they wish. Capital punishment may not be a deterrent, but it would certainly ensure that the guilty ones don't re-offend and that the world would be a safer place for the rest of us law-abiding citizens. I'm at a stage in my life where I'm pig sick of the way our lives are blighted by criminals. Not only would I welcome back the death penalty but I'd extend it to include a range of other offences. And inciting public riots would be one of them.
I did actually ask that this stayed in the nest but Art decided as was his right to post ian article here! I tryed but got ignored! hey ho!
Will be back after Midnight to sort out NNWS "request" to read back ,learn from the errors ! Heartfelt plea coming up Horn Art next time Syd asks us to do something and I try to explain why please give it a little more thought! a lot of hassle would have been spared today! If I had simply merged your thread to the general chat one! although have to agree with you that i am not keen going there either!
and thank you Norway for not just deleting it - I still believe that debating it on its own thread is preferable to mixing it in with the Nest. No-one who is not inclined needs read this thread but we all want to read the Nest.
