Off Topic The Politics Thread

[GoldhawkRoad]

Farage has stood for Parliament 7 times and never got close to election. You have a low bar for success Col.

It's only a wind up if you allow yourself to be wound up.

Such is the way our Parliamentary system operates, it's almost impossible for new parties to break through. Farage still led the party that got 4 million votes, while we have SNP MP's that represent a large rock and a few flocks of sheep that get a shoe in.

Farage will go down as one of the most influential politicians in the C21st, in the UK and quite possibly beyond

 

[TootingExcess]

Such is the way our Parliamentary system operates, it's almost impossible for new parties to break through. Farage still led the party that got 4 million votes, while we have SNP MP's that represent a large rock and a few flocks of sheep that get a shoe in.

Farage will go down as one of the most influential politicians in the C21st, in the UK and quite possibly beyond

We finally convinced you of STV instead of FPTP then Goldie?

 

[sb_73]

Such is the way our Parliamentary system operates, it's almost impossible for new parties to break through. Farage still led the party that got 4 million votes, while we have SNP MP's that represent a large rock and a few flocks of sheep that get a shoe in.

Farage will go down as one of the most influential politicians in the C21st, in the UK and quite possibly beyond

We'll see re Farage. If he is remembered as a titanic figure rather than a rabble rousing right wing populist it says more about the pitiable state of UK politics in the early C21st than any qualities he may have. And as Mao Tse Tung said when asked on the impact of the French Revolution 'too early to say'. Apparently Farage now regrets saying he wouldnt mind a German living next door to him but not a Romanian. I wonder why, I'm sure it won him votes from the patriotic.

Did you read Stroller's link? Obviously from a particular perspective, but spot on regarding the 'finding someone else to blame' ethos of the populist right. They got the referendum result they wanted, they have the government they wanted, do you think they will accept responsibility for a poor outcome?

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

We finally convinced you of STV instead of FPTP then Goldie?

I've never been impressed with FPTP for Parliamentary elections, Toots. If someone want to vote Green and lives in a dyed in the wool Tory constituency, they should know that their vote goes to benefit the Green Party. The current system leads to voter malaise in my view. Obviously, where the issue is binary like the EU referendum there is no practical alternative to FPTP. Even if the voting had slip had given voters alternatives - do you want to stay in the single market?, do you want to be inside the customs union?, it would have made little difference because the choice is given at the behest of a third party, ie the EU.

Interesting listening to Radio 4 today, a speaker, I believe a senior UK civil servant in Brussels, saying that for all the talks and negotiations in the next 2 years, in good EU fashion, nothing will be decided until the final day, when there will be mad negotiations between May and Merkel and something will be bashed out. The EU believe that it will get the best deal if they try to take us to the cliff edge and look over. May will have to explain to the country before then, what the worst scenario looks like if we're forced into a hard Brexit, and the economic implications of two-way tariffs when trading with Europe (it won't come to that, the EU isn't that stupid, but we must work on the worst case)

 

[sb_73]

I've never been impressed with FPTP for Parliamentary elections, Toots. If someone want to vote Green and lives in a dyed in the wool Tory constituency, they should know that their vote goes to benefit the Green Party. The current system leads to voter malaise in my view. Obviously, where the issue is binary like the EU referendum there is no practical alternative to FPTP. Even if the voting had slip had given voters alternatives - do you want to stay in the single market?, do you want to be inside the customs union?, it would have made little difference because the choice is given at the behest of a third party, ie the EU.

Interesting listening to Radio 4 today, a speaker, I believe a senior UK civil servant in Brussels, saying that for all the talks and negotiations in the next 2 years, in good EU fashion, nothing will be decided until the final day, when there will be mad negotiations between May and Merkel and something will be bashed out. The EU believe that it will get the best deal if they try to take us to the cliff edge and look over. May will have to explain to the country before then, what the worst scenario looks like if we're forced into a hard Brexit, and the economic implications of two-way tariffs when trading with Europe (it won't come to that, the EU isn't that stupid, but we must work on the worst case)

According to 'Dr' Fox we could go for a 'Turkish' style deal which keeps us in the customs union for some things (which he then could not include in all the trade deals he is going to negotiate with non EU countries) but not everything (finance and services probably excluded) and does not require freedom of movement (of people or capital, just goods, so BMW will be ok). Seems quite likely to me.

We could have made the referendum more multiple choice (out entirely/out but in single market/same as now/in and leading reform) but it may not have delivered a clear answer.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

We'll see re Farage. If he is remembered as a titanic figure rather than a rabble rousing right wing populist it says more about the pitiable state of UK politics in the early C21st than any qualities he may have. And as Mao Tse Tung said when asked on the impact of the French Revolution 'too early to say'. Apparently Farage now regrets saying he wouldnt mind a German living next door to him but not a Romanian. I wonder why, I'm sure it won him votes from the patriotic.

Did you read Stroller's link? Obviously from a particular perspective, but spot on regarding the 'finding someone else to blame' ethos of the populist right. They got the referendum result they wanted, they have the government they wanted, do you think they will accept responsibility for a poor outcome?

I've read Strollers link and my view is Cohen is a typical Islington liberal leftie. He and his type will do everything they can to water down the referendum result, and pretend they don't understand when leavers get frustrated that they are not getting what they voted for. It's like making a winning bid for a classic car at auction, and then finding the owner keeps taking bits off it before delivery.

Populist isn't a dirty word, nor restricted to the right. Corbyn's supporters are desperate for the populist vote, and we can look forward to seeing him on TV a lot next year, trying to win us all over.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

According to 'Dr' Fox we could go for a 'Turkish' style deal which keeps us in the customs union for some things (which he then could not include in all the trade deals he is going to negotiate with non EU countries) but not everything (finance and services probably excluded) and does not require freedom of movement (of people or capital, just goods, so BMW will be ok). Seems quite likely to me.

We could have made the referendum more multiple choice (out entirely/out but in single market/same as now/in and leading reform) but it may not have delivered a clear answer.

My understanding with regard to the Turkish arrangement is that they have to get EU permission when entering trade deals with other nations. That clearly won't do. May and Merkel will come up with a bespoke deal for the UK, which will take us forward while at the same time not looking like an off the peg arrangement which another EU member might be tempted to seek outside the club

 

[TootingExcess]

I've read Strollers link and my view is Cohen is a typical Islington liberal leftie. He and his type will do everything they can to water down the referendum result, and pretend they don't understand when leavers get frustrated that they are not getting what they voted for. It's like making a winning bid for a classic car at auction, and then finding the owner keeps taking bits off it before delivery.

Populist isn't a dirty word, nor restricted to the right. Corbyn's supporters are desperate for the populist vote, and we can look forward to seeing him on TV a lot next year, trying to win us all over.

Corbyn and McDonnell are pro-Brexit and leaving the single market, and for Open borders for any migrant (EU or otherwise). I really dont know whose vote they are going for with those views

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

Corbyn and McDonnell are pro-Brexit and leaving the single market, and for Open borders for any migrant (EU or otherwise). I really dont know whose vote they are going for with those views

Is Corbyn for leaving the single market? Not sure on that one, thought he wanted to stay in. He'll probably go for the populist vote on jobs and housing, and the JAMS. I think it's a lost cause for him, but we'll see.

In the meantime, here's plenty to get your teeth into, hot off the Grauniad press!

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...rbyn-brand-leftwing-populism-yanis-varoufakis

 

[sb_73]

I've read Strollers link and my view is Cohen is a typical Islington liberal leftie. He and his type will do everything they can to water down the referendum result, and pretend they don't understand when leavers get frustrated that they are not getting what they voted for. It's like making a winning bid for a classic car at auction, and then finding the owner keeps taking bits off it before delivery.

Populist isn't a dirty word, nor restricted to the right. Corbyn's supporters are desperate for the populist vote, and we can look forward to seeing him on TV a lot next year, trying to win us all over.

The 'don't understand' bit is why the winners should blame anyone but the people in power when they don't get what they expect. Brexit voters have a government which is explicitly governing for them, to the open exclusion of the rest, especially people like me.

Populism can of course be left or right, but it is a dirty word in my book, because it's about making promises (usually undeliverable) that appeal to the basest instincts of the least knowledgeable sections of the electorate in order to gain power. Such as 'we will spend an extra £350m a week on the NHS if we leave the EU'. Still, 'left liberal' is clearly a dirty phrase in your book (there is nothing liberal about Momentum by the way) so people see things differently.

 

[TheBigDipper]

I've read Strollers link and my view is Cohen is a typical Islington liberal leftie. He and his type will do everything they can to water down the referendum result, and pretend they don't understand when leavers get frustrated that they are not getting what they voted for. It's like making a winning bid for a classic car at auction, and then finding the owner keeps taking bits off it before delivery.

Populist isn't a dirty word, nor restricted to the right. Corbyn's supporters are desperate for the populist vote, and we can look forward to seeing him on TV a lot next year, trying to win us all over.

That analogy isn't quite right for me. It assumes that there was a picture of the car and a specification of what it comprised before the sale took place. I'd say we never saw what the car looked like, or what was in it, just asked to buy "a classic car". Now we're discussing what was actually on offer. If I was being mischievous I might say "Classic means classic".....

I think you're correct about Corbyn and Labour, but because I'm occupying the centre and not left wing, I don't care! More seriously, I don't care for people who just want to win and will say whatever they need to to get elected.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

The 'don't understand' bit is why the winners should blame anyone but the people in power when they don't get what they expect. Brexit voters have a government which is explicitly governing for them, to the open exclusion of the rest, especially people like me.

Populism can of course be left or right, but it is a dirty word in my book, because it's about making promises (usually undeliverable) that appeal to the basest instincts of the least knowledgeable sections of the electorate in order to gain power. Such as 'we will spend an extra £350m a week on the NHS if we leave the EU'. Still, 'left liberal' is clearly a dirty phrase in your book (there is nothing liberal about Momentum by the way) so people see things differently.

The referendum concern and "liberal" being a dirty word are combined where you have 2nd referendum promulgators like Farron, Clegg etc who would have no conscience whatsoever in ignoring the referendum result because it was a "populist" vote by stupid people, and instead pursue an anti-democratic line in order to support the privileged elite in Europe. Liberalism can be progressive, but I've seen little of that in politics for years.

Clegg lied about abolishing student fees for political gain. Is he populist?

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

That analogy isn't quite right for me. It assumes that there was a picture of the car and a specification of what it comprised before the sale took place. I'd say we never saw what the car looked like, or what was in it, just asked to buy "a classic car". Now we're discussing what was actually on offer. If I was being mischievous I might say "Classic means classic".....

I think you're correct about Corbyn and Labour, but because I'm occupying the centre and not left wing, I don't care! More seriously, I don't care for people who just want to win and will say whatever they need to to get elected.

Yes, some truth in what you say about the analogy, except that I believe the vast majority of leave voters wanted control over immigration. This is the red line and without it, the referendum is a classic car that now looks more like a go-cart

 

[sb_73]

The referendum concern and "liberal" being a dirty word are combined where you have 2nd referendum promulgators like Farron, Clegg etc who would have no conscience whatsoever in ignoring the referendum result because it was a "populist" vote by stupid people, and instead pursue an anti-democratic line in order to support the privileged elite in Europe. Liberalism can be progressive, but I've seen little of that in politics for years.

Clegg lied about abolishing student fees for political gain. Is he populist?

Roy Jenkins the most progressive liberal politician I can remember. I couldn't care less about the Liberal Democrats, but I think Clegg was just a pragmatic liar rather than a populist, and he paid for it.

But I must apologise to ordinary Brexit voters - you know, not the ones like you, but the ones who thought their lives would get better because of Brexit, like they were told it would. Just had a segment from Coventry on the news, exclusively 'just managing' types who voted Brexit. Every single one of them felt that they had been ripped off, will not get what they thought they had voted for, and they all blamed the government - not foreigners, immigrants, the EU or people like me.

I predict the lowest turnout ever at the next election.

 

[Stroller]

The referendum concern and "liberal" being a dirty word are combined where you have 2nd referendum promulgators like Farron, Clegg etc who would have no conscience whatsoever in ignoring the referendum result because it was a "populist" vote by stupid people, and instead pursue an anti-democratic line in order to support the privileged elite in Europe. Liberalism can be progressive, but I've seen little of that in politics for years.

Clegg lied about abolishing student fees for political gain. Is he populist?

If there were to be a second vote, now that the lies have been exposed, and once the potential terms of exit are known, would you accept a majority Remain vote as being 'the will of the people' or is it only how they felt on June 23rd that matters?

 

[TheBigDipper]

Yes, some truth in what you say about the analogy, except that I believe the vast majority of leave voters wanted control over immigration. This is the red line and without it, the referendum is a classic car that now looks more like a go-cart

I hear you, but I think we'll find that the hinterland of the country, where people feel abandoned by recent governments, actually wouldn't mind having immigration just as it is - if only the government would do something to help them with their lives and life opportunities. People just want to be able to get work, pay bills and lead happy lives. If they had enough jobs at decent rates of pay, enough schools, houses and hospitals, then I think they wouldn't see immigration as a problem. Of course, if the government doesn't want to provide those things then immigrants are an easy target to deflect attention from the real cause of the problem.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

Roy Jenkins the most progressive liberal politician I can remember. I couldn't care less about the Liberal Democrats, but I think Clegg was just a pragmatic liar rather than a populist, and he paid for it.

But I must apologise to ordinary Brexit voters - you know, not the ones like you, but the ones who thought their lives would get better because of Brexit, like they were told it would. Just had a segment from Coventry on the news, exclusively 'just managing' types who voted Brexit. Every single one of them felt that they had been ripped off, will not get what they thought they had voted for, and they all blamed the government - not foreigners, immigrants, the EU or people like me.

I predict the lowest turnout ever at the next election.

The worst kind of populists are pragmatic liars

I agree, some leavers are impatient. Long way to go to the next election (probably)

 

[sb_73]

If there were to be a second vote, now that the lies have been exposed, and once the potential terms of exit are known, would you accept a majority Remain vote as being 'the will of the people' or is it only how they felt on June 23rd that matters?

Don't be daft. The only one that counts must be the 5th June 1975 one, because we can never change our minds.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

If there were to be a second vote, now that the lies have been exposed, and once the potential terms of exit are known, would you accept a majority Remain vote as being 'the will of the people' or is it only how they felt on June 23rd that matters?

I would not accept the result of a second referendum because a large number of leavers would lose hope and not vote, on the basis that Parliament would keep forcing votes until it gets the result it wants - as happened in Ireland

 

[sb_73]

The worst kind of populists are pragmatic liars

I agree, some leavers are impatient. Long way to go to the next election (probably)

And the best kind of populists are bare faced liars?