Young English Talent

Positive to the end

 

Oh but it's true - I have a football pitch I can see out my window - It used to be full of children playing football and now just dog ****.

 

Oh but its not. There are more kids engaged in playing football than ever and we have put in place plans to get our heads out of the sand and tackle our technical demons. The kids are too scared to play footy because some angry weirdo is watching them out of the window

 

I regard it differently.

A policy of preferring English talent will be counter productive. A protected or privileged market will always produce inferior goods. England will start producing first class players not by excluding or limiting foreign payers in the Prem but by increasing the number of English players in foreign leagues. It's the desire to pay more for English players and to ram them into the team if possible which is the problem, not the solution.

Players form all other nationalities go wherever they can get a game, home or away. The good ones develop in the weaker leagues. learning aspects of different national games along the way, before cementing positions in the higher leagues.

English players command a premium for being English, on the basis of the argument that you (very clearly) set out. They don't go anywhere, except Hartlepool. They don't learn anything. They become one dimensional, and then even more one dimensional.

If not team gave a cack about whether a player was English or not, and refused to pay more for an English talent than a foreign one, you might see more English players in Lyon, Getafe or Serie B. They might learn how to play football better than they do in Hartlepool. We might start developing decent talent. Prioritising English players prolongs the problem. It doesn't solve it.

 

I heard that Cardiff City are in for Tom Ince.

 

I think they were also one of the clubs who have had a bid for Redmond accepted!

 

If Cardiff complete the Redmond deal, Malky Mackay will look a genius securing Jordan Mutch and Nathan Redmond for around £4m.

and yet our own Footballer's are just far too expensive to entertain buying? nonsense.

 

We clearly see things very differently. I think if we were producing more talented English players, you would see more them go abroad. However it is not a necessity to see progress. Many German players prefer to stay at home and play football for the majority of their career in their home country. It has not precluded them from progressing their football. Spain, Holland, Germany, Brazil, Argentina have all adopted a "provide opportunity first to national talent" approach and have reaped the rewards. They are very open about this.

I have no problem with English players once they have graduated from their academies and made their name playing for their English club, then moving on to further their education in other countries. This can only be a good thing and is the natural process adopted by the aforementioned countries to make room for the next generation of talent to progress through opportunity. Very few foreign develop their raw talent from English coaching. There are some like Fabregas who are taught to a certain age and then leave for opportunity elsewhere because they see the road to first team football blocked or see an opportunity to earn greater sums than they can in their own country. Why are English clubs willing to take them? They have been better coached and have better technical levels. Which foreign club would want an English coached youngster who is struggling for opportunity?

What they learn and how they learn is not down to the country they learn in. It is down to the coaching. We are pushing towards improving the coaching of technical standards at long last. What we have to make sure is that we have the buy in (particularly from the top flight) to provide the opportunities for the coaches and players to put that learning to use.

Spain and Germany had to meet this very challenge of overhauling their youth systems 10-15 years ago. One of the key drivers they identified was getting buy in from the clubs to provide the relevant opportunities. The two have to go hand in hand. Its pointless improving the coaching without the opportunity, and its pointless providing the opportunity without improving the coaching.

To suggest that English players can not learn how to play football properly or will be one dimensional if they learn in England is too defeatist, and frankly lazy. We are more than capable of upskilling ourselves in the same way others have to coach a better standard. Our problem is we have had our heads stuck in the sand for way too long and have been too arrogant to accept we have fallen behind, got lazy and need to improve.

As for the premium put on English talent. Players would not command such silly fees if we increase the pool of players capable of playing at the highest level. It is only because of the small nature of the pool that increases the premium. Pure supply and demand.

 

You talk so much ****!!! most of the best players this country has ever produced played on the streets and terraces and developed genuine skill. They were not the kids of rich pushy parents. Serious how old are you? the parks and fields of this country were packed with kids playing football at one time.

How can you tell me more kids are involved in playing football ffs? no figures would include the ones playing in parks with a rancid old football.

 

A fantastically brilliant irrational rant.

 

Two out of the three positions we're putting forward are not incompatible.

We can and should upskill by improving our coaching, especially at grass roots level. If we did, we would produce players with technical skill. Can't disagree with any of that.

Technically skilled English players would be hired by Prem clubs. Indeed: unskilled players are purchased at a premium now. Skilled players would certainly be snapped up.

English players need to be prioritised by English clubs in order for the level of English to progress. Don't see this at all. The two premises set out above seem to lead to the opposite conclusion.

 

God help us.

 

That's what we all think whenever you post anything...

 

The successes of Germany and Spain suggest differently. It is a short term evil to garner long term gain. The investment that is required and is taking place from the FA and individuals to see the resultant upskilling of coaching is huge. To warrant it, you need buy in from clubs to provide coaching opportunities to English coaches going through the programmes. That will automatically see the increase in technical skills in the players we produce.

However there is no getting away from the issue we now have a further barrier in place, which is probably bigger than the likes of Spain/Germany, in that we have a predominantly foreign dominated playing staff and clubs who prefer the assurity of risk free policy to buy eastablished foreign talent. They are openly admitting this at present. They regularly comment we can pay over the odds for a english youngster who carries risk, or pay a much lower rate for a Michu or established international who carries less risk.

The PL is controlled by money and this is where I believe your assertion that PL club swould automatically afford opportunity to young players falls down. Its true unskilled players are snapped up, just enough to meet the regulations! Those investing the money do not like risk. Blooding young players regardless of talent is viewed as a risk. Therefore to cross the divide initially you need to get buy in. This would be preferable but not likely with the power of PL clubs. So we may have to take the more extreme measure of imposing regulations which mean top flight clubs put faith in the investment made in coaching. These rules could be relaxed at a later stage. we should not be frightened to do this for the good of our national team.

 

Got to disagree with you here in that we should get rid of Cabaye. He's integral to our midfield, bringing genuine guile and international class. Yes he underperformed last season (and admitted suffering depression), but name one player who did perform to expectations? We saw in his first season his ability to thread a through ball, and score goals - including free-kicks. You don't lose that ability in one season.
Perhaps take him off corners, yes, but sell him to fund a move for an unproven Championship striker? No thanks.

 

The only reason English talent is more expensive is that English clubs are willing to pay more for it - - that is, all things being equal, English clubs will pay more for a English player than a foreign player.

The fact that English players are preferred at least as far as price goes would seem to that they are not discriminated against as far as playing opportunities - - quite the reverse. The suggestion that the clubs need to apply some sort of affirmative action before well qualified English coaches and players will be able to secure positions is something that I have seen no evidence for. Nor can I think of any reason why it should be the case.

 

Never said I wanted rid of him (read one of my later posts, I'd rather sell off the dead wood to fund these moves) BUT I think he has had his head turned and is looking to move on (could be due to his depression) and IF that is the case and IF we can get the money being mentioned, these would be good deals.

Anyway welcome to the board and enjoy posting looking forward to some of this diamond wit.

 

English players cost more because there are not many good enough to compete in the PL. So because you have many clubs (who all have to meet certain criteria regarding players trained in England and naturally quite rightly want an English core) all competing for the same players, the selling club can bump the price. increase the pool, reduce the price.

Are you English though Freddd? Do you have interest in how the English national team does? If not I think its quite natural you wouldn't see a reason to provide opportunity to players and coaches. However for those who want a successful national team, it is only natural we'll look at how other countries have done this successfully and look to see replication of it. Unashamed nationalism. This is England and while I'm all for an open market in any occupation to a certain extent, I'm also fully behind us looking after our own first and foremost.

 

I'm a naturalised Englishman and Geordie. I don't get quite as excited about England as I do about the Toon, but close.

I've not anywhere questioned the desirability of improving the England national team, or that a lot of effort is needed and warranted to accomplish this. This needs to be focussed at producing 14 year old English players who are as skilled as 14 year old Europeans.

Our area of disagreement is that I regard positive discrimination (or whatever you want to call it) as counter productive in football as it is generally. Let the clubs hire who they like best, no matter where they come from. Let English players go wherever they can find a game. If they aren't handicapped by their initial development, the good ones will flourish.

So what, frankly, if only a third of the players in the Prem are English ? Those players will necessarily be the best English players, and playing at higher level than if access to foreign players were restricted. You would want to pick the national team from the top third of English players in any event. The only ones being excluded from the Prem are the ones you wouldn't have wanted to select anyway.

Protectionism is the recourse of the inferior and of the cowardly.

 

would love it considering ive already accepted the fact Cabaye is probably going so i'd be happy with anita playing a cabaye role (albeit it much less hollywood balls) whilst two pacy wingers get behind the defence to feed cisse. i feel last season we were sussed out on our reliance of cabaye feeding directly to cisse (though that deep midfield position probably didn't help either).
but can you imagine what would happen if those two names were given to kinnear?
we'd end up with Paul Ince and Redondo