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You know what really bugs me?

Discussion in 'Watford' started by Hornette_TID, Jan 21, 2014.

  1. wear_yellow

    wear_yellow Well-Known Member

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    Fully agree with the point that the Palestinians being used as a a pawn in the war between Israel and the Arab world and the issue of tunneling arms into the West Bank. But this is not one sided H, Israel has continued to turn a blind eye to the illegal creation of new settlements to support the growth of Israel from immigrants from The US and Easrern Europe / Russia. Israel is beginning to lose a lot of support in the wider world in the way that they are being very selective in their treatment of Palestinians.
     
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  2. Raphael

    Raphael Active Member

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    This has as often here turned into an even better discussion than how it started.

    H - perhaps as the Palestinians have lived in the area for hundreds if not thousands of years you question should ask whether Israel rather than Palestine should relocate to some other part of the - maybe - Arab world. As Israel was an artificial creation after the second world war I think they need to remember that displaced people will always be unhappy.

    I think it excellent that Israel was created but the speed with which it was done sowed the seeds for the unrest that has continued since.

    If Israel were to withdraw to the borders assigned to it originally in exchange for a UN guarantee to maintain those borders with the Palestinians being given the right to their "homeland" on the east bank of the Jordan and an Arab pledge to discontinue hostilities we could have a recipe for peace - but I won't hold my breath - simplistic solutions never work
     
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  3. Scullion

    Scullion Well-Known Member

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    Fantastic discussion everyone, thank you, a lot of you have made points that I would agree with and you are so well informed.

    I'll make no big comments but I don't think moving Israel out of the middle east will bring peace as there seems to be a much bigger religious/tribal war going on.
     
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  4. yellotoyou

    yellotoyou Active Member

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    I find this very difficult to reply to as I find myself normally agreeing with Hornette whose opinion I value as much as I used to value that of SLB (Unfortunately I have to conclude he has gone to the great Vicarage Road in the sky). But on this occasion I feel Hornette you have missed some points here. The Palestinians are indeed pawns but they are living where they and their families have for centuries. Therefore it isn't as simple as saying they can move on with the help of their Arab neighbours. Further the behaviour of Israel in encouraging the destruction of their homes, the gettoising of their people and the murder of their people I'm afraid reminds me and many like me of some of the atrocities of nazi Germany. As I say Israel should know better but they seem to have forgotten their own recent history. I've been to Palestine and witnessed first hand how the Israelies treat Palestinians - its disgusting. Israel is losing its support in the West and by doing so opening the doors to fascists and stupid people such as Anelka. I know it isn't all Jewish people who behave like Israel do - I was only talking to a friend the other day who told me many Jews hate what Israel is doing and some even object to there being a 'Homeland'. I don't object to there being a state of Israel but I do object to the expansionism, the flaunting of the UN mandate and the arrogance that seems to exist amongst the settlers. Israel doesn't have my backing and increasingly they lack the backing of many many people in the west - not for anti Jewish reasons such as those displayed by Anelka - but for genuine moral and humanistic reasons.
     
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  5. Raphael

    Raphael Active Member

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    Good post
     
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  6. Hornette_TID

    Hornette_TID Well-Known Member
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    I can't disagree that Israel has made mistakes. No sane person would believe that one side of a war is completely right, and the other completely wrong. But what you all seem to be forgetting is that Israelis were also on that land before the state of Israel was born, and had also lived, happily alongside Palestinians for centuries. When the British, in their infinite wisdom, decided to offer all things to all men, and then disappear and let them get on with fighting, they helped create the mess that now exists. I think if you ask most Israelis, they would agree that the Palestinians deserve a state of their own, and that the settlements are not a good thing. But, though the rest of the Arab world make a big noise about supporting Palestinians, it's the Israelis that supply them with amenities, health care, jobs etc...and their own people (Hammas) who leave them to their own devices and incite hatred, and teach children how to carry guns. And what does the Arab world do? Nothing. While Palestinians are happy fighting their wars for them, why should they do anything?!
     
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  7. NZHorn

    NZHorn Well-Known Member

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    I have steered clear of this discussion so far, but it has now moved into an area in which I feel I have something to add. A Jewish friend of mine used to accuse me of racism if I used the term 'Philistine' in a derogatory manner, as he said it was racist against Palistinians who were, he said, were descended from the Philistines. He also pointed out that it is ridiculous to call Arabs anti-Semitic as Arabs are Semitic people. He likened the attempts to only consider the Jews as Semitic was an attempt to sub-consciously de-humanise Arabs, by removing their race, which he likened to what the Nazis did to the Jews.

    Needless to say, he was anti-Zionist, but also fiercely proud of his Jewish heritage.

    I add this to the discussion to illustrate how dangerous it is to generalise about anything about race and culture. To my mind all racism is wrong but we all run the risk making assumptions about race. There were white South Africans who died for the anti-apartheid cause, and blacks who supported the old regime. There are currently whites who support Robert Mugabe and are doing very well out of his appropriation of both black and white owned businesses.

    In the same way it is wrong to assume that every Palestinian, every Israeli, every Jew, every Arab and every Muslim, think and act in the same way and with the same goals. All races have their fair share or racist, intolerant, bigots, who will get support from similar bigots of other races. But, and this is a very important but, if we treat people with respect, no matter who they are, we will starve the bigots of many of their recruits. If we judge and treat people because of what we assume about their race, religion or ethnicity, we will be preparing recruits for the bigots.

    Rant over, sorry.
     
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  8. Hornette_TID

    Hornette_TID Well-Known Member
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    NZHorn, excellently said!
     
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  9. Hornet-Fez

    Hornet-Fez Well-Known Member

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    Starting with Anelka I do wonder what goes through whatever it is that passes for a brain. The man is a complete numpty regardless of the true meaning behind his gesture. It is unacceptable whatever his reasoning. In comedy John Clease points out rightly that "no one has the right not to be offended". That does not apply to the football pitch and rightly so.
    As for the M.E. the problems are as old as antiquity and religion is at the heart of it. It's all utterly pathetic from my atheist viewpoint. That said it seems to me that today's problems stem from the necessity to create a Jewish state after WWII. The same mistakes made at the end of WWI in the punishment of Germany were made by displacing the Palestinians- it happened again after the first Gulf War... we keep on winning the wars and losing the peace.
    Moving onto modern day Israel it struck me that they always wanted peace but that the Arab states did not want Israel full stop. When you hear zealots like Ahmadinejad talk of wiping Israel off the map and denying the holocaust you have to wonder what hope there is for humanity let alone peace in the middle east!
    Not that the Israelis have helped themselves as they shot Rabin, a real proponent of peace and have arguably replaced him with more hardliners like the present incumbent. He insists on building illegal settlements and is clearly doing nothing to address the long term issues in the area it seems to me.
    All in all it's an unholy mess that only the brave like Rabin will truly confront and there are far too many cowards and murderers around willing to perpetuate the violence and usually in the name of God.
     
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  10. oldfrenchhorn

    oldfrenchhorn Well-Known Member
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    As H says above Israelis and Palestinians can, have and do live peacefully together. In South Africa as NZ says people of different races also could live alongside each other with respect for their differences. In the large cities in France there are many Muslims living in what is a secular state.

    From my perspective it is not religion, but politics that are the problem. On the outskirts of Paris and Marseilles in particular huge gettos were built to herd the immigrant, mainly Muslim population together. That political decision has created unrest because anyone who has the postcode of these areas finds it difficult to even get an interview for a job, let alone decent employment. Because of the unrest extreme political parties such as the Le Penn national front exist. There are always people like Le Penn who are looking for political power so that they can impose their views on others. Extremists sometimes become so because they cannot find a way out of their living conditions, but I frequently hear in France the leaders of the Muslim community telling their followers to use the ballot box to change things, not violence. Peaceful leaders do appear from time to time in the middle east, but it is the ones who want political power who do their best to remove them.
     
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  11. wear_yellow

    wear_yellow Well-Known Member

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    This thread continues to contain an excellent debate on some serious issues that will effect us all - whatever our race, creed or religion. Watford not606 back to it's best.
     
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  12. canary-dave

    canary-dave Well-Known Member

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    I agree w_y, I'm still reading this thread and learning so much that I didn't know, much of it I should have known already, for instance, I didn't know that the state of Israel was created by the British, either I didn't pay full attention at school, or, more likely, it was removed from the school curriculum so as not show Britain in a bad light!

    I hope this thread goes on forever to increase my poor knowledge, I also hope we can all offer our best to H who obviously feels very strongly about this and is obviously offended by the gesture no matter how it was intended!
     
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  13. hornethologist a.k.a. theo

    hornethologist a.k.a. theo Well-Known Member

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    While religion and politics are key factors in setting folk against each other, we shouldn't forget economics and in particular the high cost of accommodation in city centres. Ghettos also emerge where people with little money congregate because the housing stock is cheap and in poor condition.
     
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  14. Jsybarry

    Jsybarry Well-Known Member

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    It's also interesting how different immigrant groups can be viewed differently in the same place - Jersey being an example of this. When I moved to the island over 17 years ago, one of the first things I found out was the dislike for the Portugese (mainly Madeiran) community - often referred to as "Porkos". This was due to an interfering EU, even though Jersey is not a member (they still don't seem to have got that idea even now). The Jersey law was that they were allowed to live and work here for 9 months of the year then return to Madeira for the other 3. They were willing to do this as most of them were here to earn enough money to build themselves a new home in Madeira. The EU then stuck there noses in and said what Jersey was doing was against EU law and that they had to be able to stay the whole year, which then caused resentment as it was fine for them to be here when the tourism industry was at it's height as that was the sector most of them worked in, but to allow them to stay and work in other industries was too much. That ill-feeling has decreased over the years, although the term I mentioned above can still be occasionally heard from the mouth of the older "true" Jersey person (they, both parents and all 4 grandparents born on the island is the criteria the States use to decide that). Ironically, it's the influx of the Polish in the last few years that has helped as they have been welcomed and so people are more tolerant of all foreigners on the island. However, at times some Portugese don't help themselves. These are the groups that won't talk with any other nationalities. Again, these tend to be those who were here when the rules were changed and there is probably still some fear. When England played Portugal in the match where Ronaldo got Rooney sent off, there were riots in St. Helier after the match and that is the only time that has happened in my time here.
     
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  15. Bolton's Boots

    Bolton's Boots Well-Known Member

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    More likely that you didn't listen dave - when you were at school, it would have come under the heading of Modern Studies. :) The creation of Israel would not, in most eyes of the world, have been considered a bad thing at the time, given what had just happened to Jewish people in the lead up to, and during WWII. They needed somewhere to go and, when all is said and done, the British merely helped them back into their traditional lands.

    As to the 'Palestinian problem', for me there's little doubt that both sides (Arab/Israeli) have to shoulder blame for the current predicament, but certainly not in equal proportions. The Israelis include in their ranks Nobel laureates in physics, economics, chemistry and literature; they were founders of business giants such as Packard Bell, Oracle, SanDisk, Akamai, and ICQ. They have contributed more to modern society than the Arab nations who, from where I'm standing, have done little except 'enrich' themselves from the proceeds of oil, and talk of wiping out the State of Israel. And don't start me on their religion....
     
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  16. Raphael

    Raphael Active Member

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    Not sure you have your history very accurate H. From my rusty old "O" level days we studied this. The Ottoman Empire expanded into the region we are talking about and controlled it for centuries. However as they were on the losing side of WW1 lands that became Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Palestine were all taken from them. The British were asked to govern what was called Mandatory (they had a mandate from the League of Nations) Palestine. In the 19C only 3% of the population in Palestine were Jewish - the Jews had over centuries moved abroad (- the diasporo ?). In the 20C the Zionist movement grew looking for a Jewish homeland. By 1946 31% of the population of Palestine had become Jewish and many more were arriving post war. The British got fed up with the fighting between Arabs and Jews and said they were quitting trying to control it. The United Nations therefore -not the British - resolved to set up BOTH a Jewish and Palestinian homeland. The day before the British were due to quit David Ben Gurion declared the state of Israel - the next day the Arabs attacked and the rest as they say is history.

    For me the problems stem from the Palestinians never being given their own state - they should have been - and the Arabs refusing to accept that Israel had a right to exist.

    I await a history expert to correct any errors I have made above.
     
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  17. Raphael

    Raphael Active Member

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  18. canary-dave

    canary-dave Well-Known Member

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  19. zen guerrilla

    zen guerrilla Well-Known Member

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    A couple of things being missed here in respect of the Palestinians. Firstly they are not liked by the other Arab peoples and nations of the area, and when the Jews came home to the region a lot them bought land from the Arab occupiers.
     
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  20. Raphael

    Raphael Active Member

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    I am not sure you can validly make such a sweeping statement as "they are not liked by the other Arab peoples" can you?

    Also how Jews buy and sell land is not really the issue - a tract of land was designated for Israel by the UN. The trouble is that Arabs have never accepted that. However given that for centuries it was occupied by the Ottoman Empire it is difficult to say it was "Arab" land.
     
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