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Yids

Discussion in 'Arsenal' started by PINKIE, Sep 12, 2013.

  1. suker_suker

    suker_suker Well-Known Member

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    Neither do I, but arresting people for saying offensive things concerns me. These days the police seem far more concerned with arresting people who say politically incorrect things on Twitter than concentrating on more serious offenses.
     
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  2. colognehornet

    colognehornet Well-Known Member

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    As far as I know the shortening Yid comes from Yiddish - a central european language of high German origins spoken in various forms by central European Jews. It is not actually a synonym for Jew in as much as many orthodox Jews do not understand it. At first glance it seems no more offensive than Aussie or Scot, and less offensive than Paddy, Taffy or Jock. However it depends on what associations a term has, and on the tone and context in which it is said whether it is offensive or not - the word Paki is nearly always offensive because of the way it has been used in the past. The use of Yid would be highly offensive if used together with hissing sounds like from a gas chamber - as used by some West Ham fans in the past, but surely not when used by Spurs fans referring to themselves (Whether Jewish or not). We live however in sensitive times on this issue and stewards, police etc. are not often able to judge how a term was used - whether jokingly, simply without thinking or with real malicious intent. A line has to be drawn somewhere but PC really is a grey area. Naturally such revolting sectarian singing as heard at Ibrox or Parkhead in the past needs to be stamped out - and nobody wants to return to the 80's in England. But is a harmless joke such as begins with 'Paddy and Mick walked into a bar' politically acceptable or not ? It depends entirely on the person telling it - if done with the real feeling that Irish people are of less worth than others, or if done with no such feeling and only for friendship building in a pub. Also the time and place are important - some Irish people can laugh at Irish jokes some can't - and the Jews are some of the best tellers of jokes in the World.
     
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  3. District Line

    District Line Well-Known Member Forum Moderator

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    That would take society back half a century at the very least. It's swung too far the other way but that isn't the solution.
     
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  4. Han Shot First

    Han Shot First New Member

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    I see Piskie's gone off on one of his anti spurs rants again.
     
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  5. suker_suker

    suker_suker Well-Known Member

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    Obviously we don't want the P word or N word being thrown about but, as you say, it has swung too far the other way.
     
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  6. PINKIE

    PINKIE Wurzel Gummidge

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    For somebody who does ranting like a pro, that's a bit rich coming from you. <laugh>
     
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  7. lazarus20000

    lazarus20000 Well-Known Member

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    What I don't understand is the need to abuse and insult people? Why can't we use witty banter instead of swear words and derogatory remarks? Bringing someone race, colour or creed into the equation is totally irrelevant and only breeds hatred. The problem is, unless you're in someone elses shoes, you'll never know how they feel. Just showing a little empathy to one another goes a long way. Got that, you bunch of w@nker$ :emoticon-0110-tongu
     
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  8. crocarno

    crocarno Member

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    Interesting debate. I was watching Only Fools & Horses this week, and in it (1985), he gives a kid 50p and tells him to pop down the "Paki Shop" and get himself an ice-cream. Clearly, OF&H is not a programme that aims to offend. That said, it is probably the only time I have heard the P word in a non-derogatory manner.

    I was born in the late 60's and have lived my whole life in this country, but from Italian parentage. I've spent many a year being called a Wop - like many people have said on here, most people have no idea of the derivation of words or sayings, just join in because they think they should.

    I'm with DL on this - things do feel like they have swung so far the other way and that no-one can say anything, but there is a line to be drawn. The difficulty is working out where that line is, as people will say words or phrases to deliberately offend or hurt people, whilst others will say them as a word in a conversation. Also, some people are offended by some things, and others not bothered by the same. It's probably why we bend over backwards in an attempt to please everyone.
     
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  9. District Line

    District Line Well-Known Member Forum Moderator

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    When you have a united community there are benefits for everybody. Better understanding of different cultures which reduces the likelihood of conflict and equal/fair opportunities for all.

    Go back to the 60s/70s where you could almost freely shout the "N" word or "P" word at people. Or the even darker days of the 50s with the Notting Hill riots and the "No Blacks, No Irish, No Dogs" signs outside public houses.

    When people feel disenfranchised from wider society, that's when you get things like the riots (Tottenham) and the backlash from the Stephen Lawrence incident, as well as the Lee Rigby murder and 7/7 etc.

    Unite society don't divide it. No "P" word being thrown about during street corners but equally no positive discrimination either.
     
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  10. winifred122

    winifred122 Well-Known Member

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    It's not just about 'bending over backwards' to please people, its also about having the courage of your convictions to confront people who are abusive or bullying. I am afraid, however, that I do not meet the requirements here. Many times I have been at a football match (It's never at a cricket or rugby match that this problem occurs) when one or more people are often hurling unnecessary abuse at players, managers or other fans (whoever they support) and I know that it's just wrong, that someone should stand up and say something to put a stop to it - but I never have done. I am too afraid of being dragged into a situation that could turn ugly and I placate myself by pretending that it is nothing to do with me and, anyway, nobody else seems bothered. I'm betting that a lot of people think like me and are equally embarrased and shamed when someone does actually stand up. I said in an earlier post that it is up to all of us in terms of responsibility - but we need to overcome some fears to do it. Sad as that might seem.
     
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  11. crocarno

    crocarno Member

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    Winifred - don't disagree. I'm similar to you at large events, although if it was in front/close to my children (when I go with them), I would, at the very least, let a steward know.

    I'm different in a more intimate situation. If I was in a pub, and heard/saw it going on, then I would (and have) said something. Done it on a train as well. I'm sure one day it will backfire and I'll unfortunately end up in a physical confrontation, but I find it hard to let bad things go.
     
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  12. winifred122

    winifred122 Well-Known Member

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    I wish I could say that I know I would do the same when the "intimate" situation dictated - but if I am honest, it would probably take an extreme situation. If the kids are there, then it would be different. I guess I just want a quiet life really.....
     
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  13. ToledoTrumpton

    ToledoTrumpton Well-Known Member

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    This show comes from an age when people did not understand racism as well.

    Words like Yid and Paki are used to demean and separate a minority (sometimes a single person) into a stereotypical group and create a "Them and us" situation. It also reduces the minority to a "Non-human" stereotype that can be abused without the abuser feeling wrong.

    When Wop and Inky were used as nicknames in the 50s and 60s they were not being used as group names, and it was not the same at all.

    Just as weed can lead to harder drugs, this name-calling creates the environment for worse abuse. To say that these two situations are the same is to misunderstand the issue on a vey fundamental level.
     
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  14. crocarno

    crocarno Member

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    TT

    Agree in part, but not with all you say. You say that my example of OF&H is down to not understanding racism. In that example, was he phrase "racist" per se, or was it a term that is now deemed to be inappropriate. Was the manner in which it was used (in the show), stated to demean, insult or attempt to isolate someone OR, was it used to try to describe (abbreviate) that they should use the shop which was run by someone of Pakistani origin AND, in that period, would those individuals have found it offensive and separatist? I can't answer that for that period.

    You also indicate (if I've read your comments correctly) that terms like Wop are nothing like that. I can tell you, from personal experience and that of my father, that the phrase was "group names". I experienced significant verbal abuse as a teenager (early eighties) - my dad much more in the sixties and 70's. Wop was used as a derogatory phrase and a deliberate attempt to isolate/bully. Even an innocuous phrase like "Itai" was always proceeded with "fu£king".
     
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  15. ToledoTrumpton

    ToledoTrumpton Well-Known Member

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    Croc - I apologise if I implied that the term Wop was not insulting. I was trying to say that when it was used as a nickname for an individual, rather like Paddy for example, it might be used in a non-derogatory fashion. There were many Irishmen in the old days that went through life called Paddy and even called themselves that.

    However, any word can be used in a derogatory fashion, as (sadly) we see new words popping up as quickly as the old ones become socially unacceptable.
     
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  16. afcftw

    afcftw Well-Known Member

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    Sorry but your last sentence is a big pile of steamy ****. Weed does not lead to harder drugs. That's a total nonsense. I won't get into it properly but that's a poor example and the "gateway" drug idea has been shat all over repeatedly.
     
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  17. crocarno

    crocarno Member

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    TT - no worries. I think we're all agreed that whilst certain words/phrases are unacceptable today (this will change throughout time), the manner & tone in which it is used is normally the driving factor and (as you say), anything could be derogatory.

    From personal experience, and I can only speak for myself, when anyone used "Wop" (even on an individual basis), it felt offensive - even if that may not have been the intention. I certainly felt like I was being singled out / isolated - although as I grew up, I used the individuality to my advantage......I was always a "Wop" around the ladies!!

    Funny though, I don't think anyone I ever met actually knew why the word Wop was used in the first place. Goes back to the uneducated sheep-like mentality of the human race.

    Anyway, the conversation feels a bit heavy for a Friday, I'm off to get a Pizza, some Spaghetti and a pint of Peroni, followed by a large Cornetto (just one, though)!!!!!
     
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  18. afcftw

    afcftw Well-Known Member

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    I don' think ANY word should be socially unacceptable. It's all about when and where it is used and the intent behind the word. For example at University i lived in a house with 4 other white people and we refered to each other as ****** on a regular basis. This was in no way wrong and didn't upset anyone. The word had a place that was in no way offensive or racist.

    ***got is a good example as well, it's been used as a derogatory term for old people, women, gay people and it's the name for a bunch of sticks. At different times in bhistory it has been offensive or not offensive.

    At the end of the day a word is just a sound comming out of your mouth, nothing more. It's the meaning and importance we individually attach to words which people take offence to. And the problem is we all have different thresholds for what we think is acceptable!
     
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  19. rannaramshere

    rannaramshere Member

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    To be fair lazarus, a lot of us were too young back then. 20 years ago I was still in the womb. Mind you I'm a bit aware of it. It's all very stupid though, the weight people give words. It's not the words you use but the intent behind it. If I were to call you a Pakistani, I could load it with far more venom and hatred than if I jokingly called you a brown bastard. Banning words doesn't solve anything.

    One term that annoys me is when people refer to someone as Asian. There's more Asians than there are any other people, it's a stupid term to use as it's so wide. You might as well call someone a human for all the honing down it does.
     
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  20. ToledoTrumpton

    ToledoTrumpton Well-Known Member

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    There are a few words these days that are only used in a racist context, or if they are heard are only taken in a racist context, however they are intended. I would say Paki, Yid and Wop all fall into that category. Putting the blame on the victim, and saying "they" should not be offended, is a majority standpoint which enables racism.
     
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