Match Day Thread World Cup Watch

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moreinjuredthanowen said:
all the countries backing us look pretty stupid right now and are prob looking at uk and saying... boy who cried wolf once too often now.
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They're all still backing the UK. Obviously Russia is the only likely candidate for using a Russian made nerve agent in a manner consistent with Russian assassinations against a Russian target.

The only alternative would be someone like the US doing it to frame Russia, but they were so slow to respond and initially were so half hearted about it that they don't look likely instigators. I wouldn't put it past the US doing that (or Israel if they had any motive at all) but US failed to capitalise on the situation. There aren't many states capable of pulling this off.

Seems a little silly and Sisuesque cukoo conspiracy theory to think it was anyone other than Russia.
 
Milk Chocolate Eggs said:
They're all still backing the UK. Obviously Russia is the only likely candidate for using a Russian made nerve agent in a manner consistent with Russian assassinations against a Russian target.

The only alternative would be someone like the US doing it to frame Russia, but they were so slow to respond and initially were so half hearted about it that they don't look likely instigators. I wouldn't put it past the US doing that (or Israel if they had any motive at all) but US failed to capitalise on the situation. There aren't many states capable of pulling this off.

Seems a little silly and Sisuesque cukoo conspiracy theory to think it was anyone other than Russia.
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Craig Murray is the former ambassador to Uzbekistan and blogged three weeks ago that Porton Down couldn't be sure. He was sacked for criticising Uzbek human rights abuses and has written today on our government's willingness to lie:

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/04/the-poison-in-our-body-politic/

He's also written on Israel's motive:

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/russian-to-judgement/

"Russian action in Syria has undermined the Israeli position in Syria and Lebanon in a fundamental way, and Israel has every motive for damaging Russia’s international position by an attack aiming to leave the blame on Russia."
 
Milk Chocolate Eggs said:
They're all still backing the UK. Obviously Russia is the only likely candidate for using a Russian made nerve agent in a manner consistent with Russian assassinations against a Russian target.

The only alternative would be someone like the US doing it to frame Russia, but they were so slow to respond and initially were so half hearted about it that they don't look likely instigators. I wouldn't put it past the US doing that (or Israel if they had any motive at all) but US failed to capitalise on the situation. There aren't many states capable of pulling this off.

Seems a little silly and Sisuesque cukoo conspiracy theory to think it was anyone other than Russia.
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sadly it's patently obvious putin is a stone cold.killer but without the ability to actually prove it may and the government look stupid. the guy virtually killed there's no reason to top him really bar internal Russian politics
 
moreinjuredthanowen said:
. the guy virtually killed there's no reason to top him really bar internal Russian politics
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It was to make a statement. If they just wanted him dead there are lots easier ways to kill someone. Much more effective ways that don't cause an international incident.

I'm sure this was supposed to cause a scene, my theory is that it was to help Putin's popularity during the election. The actual reason I doubt we'll ever know for sure.


As for no definitive proof... It seems a bit like one of those murder shows where you start out knowing who the killer is, but the cops don't have anyway of prooving it... <laugh>

Or it's like OJ. Everyone knows he killed his wife, but the prosecution ficked up trying to prove it.


Government was under pressure to act after the last time... They probably wanted to get back at Russia for all the dead Russians in Britain who have died.violent deaths but don't have a murderer identified.

Statistically, you're much more likely to be murdered in Britain if you're Russian than any other nationality... Statistical noise, or something else going on? Either way, government was under pressure to act and not let Russia get away with it. I think.the west as a whole are wishing up to the fact that Putin respects strength and if you bend for him he'll keep abusing you.

Russia certainly is showing Turkey a lot more respect since Turkey shot down one of their planes after Russia repeatedly violated their airspace.

You need to give Russia a big slap before it behaves and respects you.
 
It's also highly probable that the UK can't release all the evidence they have because they don't want to give away security information. If they have a sample from the Russian lab, they wouldn't want to have to explain how they got a sample.
 
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For feck sake... if we rate our chemical and biological centre for expertise ....they are scientists not politicians ....

They named the substance


It's not on them to identify what's beyond a scientific proof.

So.... it's a Russian created toxin.

That's it.... what way does that differentiate from the govt position... did you:

A) do it.
B) lose control of your product.


Everything else is faff.
 
DirtyFrank said:
For feck sake... if we rate our chemical and biological centre for expertise ....they are scientists not politicians ....

They named the substance


It's not on them to identify what's beyond a scientific proof.

So.... it's a Russian created toxin.

That's it.... what way does that differentiate from the govt position... did you:

A) do it.
B) lose control of your product.


Everything else is faff.
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Or did Dr no make their own having stolen it from the British scientists?

Hmmm...
 
Milk Chocolate Eggs said:
my theory is that it was to help Putin's popularity during the election.
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It's plausible but the poisoning happened about two weeks before the Russian election. That's a short amount of time and is a gamble on the international furore being built up in time for the election, especially when he's not averse to doing whatever it takes. There must've been plenty of other domestic things he could've done to achieve the same result.

Milk Chocolate Eggs said:
You need to give Russia a big slap before it behaves and respects you.
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That goes against your first theory. It's the outside threat uniting Russians that Putin is supposedly relying on with the poisoning. Why would he want to bring about an international incident likely to result in a big slap if that's what he fears?
 
Muppetfinder General said:
That goes against your first theory. It's the outside threat uniting Russians that Putin is supposedly relying on with the poisoning. Why would he want to bring about an international incident likely to result in a big slap if that's what he fears?
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He predicted that Britain would bend over like every other time Putin has done something against it. Britain would complain and give Putin the boost in opinion he needed right when he needed it but not do anything.

Everytime Russia assassinates someone on our soil we do nothing. Everytime he sends a military plane over our airspace we do nothing. Russia knows they can do whatever they like and get away with it. That's why a strong stance is needed. Honestly, I don't think we did enough. I think Russian money and owned property should have been seized.

Next time they fly a military plane into airspace without permission, do what Turkey did and shoot it down. Russia daren't upset Turkey now because they know they get punnished... And nobody, especially not Russia wants to risk an actual war. They won't send a second plane because they don't have the stomach for a war and know they would lose too much face to do nothing and Putin's stock would fall.

Putin knows Europe doesn't want war so he gets away with whatever he wants. The thing is he doesn't want one either so if his hostile actions are met with real risk he will cease.
 
huh... must be why some sources claim russia is interfering across the balkans and playing the game from the baltic all the way down to syria

just perhaps killing a few ex spys isn't actually all that significant to russia at all and the uk is making a big deal out of it to deflect from other issues of its own.
 
moreinjuredthanowen said:
huh... must be why some sources claim russia is interfering across the balkans and playing the game from the baltic all the way down to syria

just perhaps killing a few ex spys isn't actually all that significant to russia at all and the uk is making a big deal out of it to deflect from other issues of its own.
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I don't buy the "It's because of Brexit" line. That's a real stretch. I have no doubt there are other nations who would have a more significant motive. UK governments are more likely to lay into benefits claimants and bang on about "hard-working taxpayers," or start bombing somebody who isn't a nuclear superpower when they want to divert attention.
 
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Muppetfinder General said:
I don't buy the "It's because of Brexit" line. That's a real stretch. I have no doubt there are other nations who would have a more significant motive. UK governments are more likely to lay into benefits claimants and bang on about "hard-working taxpayers," or start bombing somebody who isn't a nuclear superpower when they want to divert attention.
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Lets not forget the faux moralising, UK prefers assassinations using foreign terrorists, Russia may prefer a nerve agent. The last time the UK gov tried to assassinate Gaddafi, a bunch of civilians were killed.
Cameron kills UK citizen with drone in another country too.

Lets also not forget the same nerve agent that was used, is also present 10 miles away in Porton down. Yep, the British military actually develop these nerve agents too, and am pretty sure it is illegal

France US Germany Belgium and Britain have all been murdering people abroad for decades. Obama only signed off on 2500 drone murders (not counting the human carnage that they call "collateral damage".

The claims Russia did Skripal makes no sense whatsoever, none at all. The official story is STILL changing and Boris Johnson intentionally lied, claiming scientists told him categorically that they identified Russia, when he actually fabricated the whole thing.

No one can come up with one good reason why Skripal would be taken out by the Kremlin, no one, there isn't one reason of note, just some absolutely nonsense ideas
 
PhheHdee said:
Lets not forget the faux moralising, UK prefers assassinations using foreign terrorists, Russia may prefer a nerve agent. The last time the UK gov tried to assassinate Gaddafi, a bunch of civilians were killed.
Cameron kills UK citizen with drone in another country too.

Lets also not forget the same nerve agent that was used, is also present 10 miles away in Porton down. Yep, the British military actually develop these nerve agents too, and am pretty sure it is illegal

France US Germany Belgium and Britain have all been murdering people abroad for decades. Obama only signed off on 2500 drone murders (not counting the human carnage that they call "collateral damage".

The claims Russia did Skripal makes no sense whatsoever, none at all. The official story is STILL changing and Boris Johnson intentionally lied, claiming scientists told him categorically that they identified Russia, when he actually fabricated the whole thing.

No one can come up with one good reason why Skripal would be taken out by the Kremlin, no one, there isn't one reason of note, just some absolutely nonsense ideas
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depends if the Russians = Putin and a Russian = a myriad of shady characters that might have wanted the guy dead.

who knows...

how can we know whats the truth in it.
 
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