Will we ever see 50%+ academy products together in the first XI ?

Targett is a youth player who also acts as back up to the first team. He's only played more than 10 minutes 3 times in the league and I don't think most people would consider that the record of a first team player. Long is an awkward one because he usually plays in the one area of the team where we have more players around the same level of ability than we have places in the team.

There's also a difference between Targett and Long because there's difference between how defensive players and attacking players are picked. Attacking players are rotated much more but many teams (including Southampton) still have a settled first choice defence that the manager prefers to pick.

This discussion really isn't about specific players though. It seems to me there are two ways of looking at this, either you fulfil the ambition by having 5 or 6 Academy players starting regularly or you do it by having 10 players in the first team squad.

If you go by the first measure we have at most one out of the five and if you go by the second we have three out of ten. By either measure we're a long way off fulfilling that ambition.

 

As I said at the start, your first post was close to where it's at or going to be.

On the one specific of Targett, he's a first team player for me, on the basis that if Bertrand wasn't available Targett would be picked without hesitation. If that wasn't the case, we'd be signing a new left back this summer and he'd be a youth team player acting as back-up. It may be just semantics from me here, but I definitely class Targett as part of the squad not simply back-up.

On Long, your comments prove my point; he's a first team player because he's one of a couple or three that can play where he plays. Targett is one of two who can play left back. If I push your theory further, I could suggest you are saying the target is to have more than one player of equal ability in each position; nice, but never a reality. You'll also was have players better than others.

 

I basically agree with you on Long but he and Targett are in very different situations. Long plays in a position where there's a fair amount of rotation and when all the players who play that position are fit Long might be picked to play. Targett plays in a position where there's little or no rotation and we have a clear first choice. This past season Targett was only going to play if Bertrand was unavailable. That may of course change next season. Targett's age also makes the situation different. If he was 29 and at his current level of ability I suspect we might look for another left back, but he's 19 and likely to get better so he's worth persisting with.

 

And we could end up playing 10-15 games more than last season so everyone will get more chances.

 

I think that the big hurdle to cross is CL qualification and the riches that it brings, if we can achieve this in the next few years and the club's worldwide profile continues to grow then we will be in a much stronger position to compete with the other top clubs. The club will always produce the talent and to be able to offer CL football and higher wages is crucial in convincing the better graduates to stay.

 

Possibly.!

 

You don't seemed to have got my point, quite...

You can have a first team player who isn't clear first choice. That's my whole point. If he is good enough to be in that position, but kept out by a better or more in firm player, he would still be a first team player.

What you said only applies when talking about the 11. An example the other way would be Hesketh, Gape or Gallagher. All have played first team but only when numbers deleted; none of these are next in line for their positions. Targett is and is good enough if called upon, which compared to your "he's worth persisting with" means I think he is better than you think he is.

 

I understand your point, I just disagree. For me a first team player has to have a reasonable chance of starting when everyone is fit and make a decent number of appearances in a season. Long made 32 league appearances this season, starting 16 games, so I'd just about accept you can call him a first team player. Targett made six appearances and only started two games, both when Bertrand was unavailable. Hence he's a back up player, albeit part of the first team squad. As far as I'm concerned you can be part of the first team squad and not be a first team player. I'd say Mayuka and maybe Gardos fall into that category along with Targett. No I don't think Targett has (yet) proved he's good enough to play regularly. A large part of the reason for that is that he hasn't played regularly. No doubt he will play more games next season.

 

We'll just have to disagree on that then

 

Just in case you forgot, we only made it back to the EPL in 2012. 4 years ago we were up a certain creek and sold our best players from the Acadamy. Give it a bit of time. We now have a great reputation and who wouldn't want to further their career with us . 50% is an aspiration but not impossible.

 

I think this could happen with the national team before it happens with the Saints.

 

I think you might be right there.

 

Spot on.
The fact is that we have produced an absolute plethora of international talent over the years.
But almost without exception they leave for top 4/ CL/ higher paying clubs (or Real Madrid!).

The fact that we currently have no more than 3 graduates in the first team in any one game, on the one hand is a shame, but if you put everyone who left last year back in it's much closer to the 50% dream.

I don't know, I love the idea of bringing kids through, but I think we have to accept that at least some of them will leave when they 'make it' (some of them far too early even for their own good), but in some ways it's a sign of our success.
If we do manage CL football, we can expect to keep some of them for longer I suppose, but equally we'll have more money to bring in better players for them to compete with, so I'm not sure the percentage will change that much.

But the English (Scotland, NI & Welsh) teams sporting a decent percentage of Saints graduates really does say it all about our club IMO.

 

Just possible that if we had been considered a bigger club in the past, our first team squad would also include Bale, Walcott, Oxlade-chamberlain, Chambers and Shaw, maybe with Dyer knocking around also... So absolutely reckon the 50% ambition is achievable, just give us a bit of time and success in the PL/EL and we're get there...

 

We are a bit like West Ham in producing high quality players who then move on to bigger clubs. I'm thinking of Carrick, Frank Lampard Jr, Rio Ferdinand and Joe Cole. Imagine if they had stayed together?

 

The answer is..No we won't achieve it until we produce players in a position other than left back

We also will never have enough academy graduates to make up 50% unless / until we can keep hold of them. They aren't going to come through together like the Man U SAF lucky golden ticket team. They come through one here and on there in terms of making the grade.

JWP is a backup in reality. He is a good backup but he isn't at a level where he is really competing for the place with it's incumbent. He plays when he is picked for whatever reason the manager decides. Targett/Reed are even further behind. Great players and would probably walk into a lot of Prem sides but not at a level yet where they are challenging Bertrand/Schneiderlin/Wanyama to be first choice.

As a squad we defintely are not going to hit 50% That would be half of the 25?? named. We might field 5 out of 11 in a few games for whatever reasons as there are a lot of games to play but if players didn't get injured, suspended or tired and it was possible to field the strongest 11 then non of those 3 would be in last season's squad. The only real competition in last season's squad was between Mane, Long and Tadic for the 2 places either side of Davis.

The fact that Davis is uncontested in that central position and Pelle is uncontested in the forward role when they are fit and on form says it all really. That is the difference between us and a top 4 side and it will take a long time for 5 of our academy graduates to reach the level we need. They weren't at the level we needed last season and we are trying to improve so the bar they need to catch up with is being raised season upon season because of our ambitions.

Our first 11 for a big game..if fit.if not suspended...in my opinion:

Forster
Clyne-Fonte-Alderweireld-Bertrand
Schneiderlin-Wanyama
Mane-Davis-Tadic
Pelle

I think of the 3 that are in and around the match day squad at the moment Targett has the most realistic chance of reaching a level where he can compete for Bertrand's place. Reed has some way to go to reach the level of Schneiderlin or Wanyama (and probably Clasie and whoever else we 'improve' the squad options with.) JWP's set piece delivery is something that is always talked about but a lot of corners still hit the front man (did we score off a corner last season?) His free kicks are pretty tame and again he is way behind Schneiderlin and Wanyama for a DM role and not as inventive or as mobile as Davis.
The only level JWP has reached is matching Davis' shooting ability.

This isn't me putting our youngsters down, just the reality that they are not yet at a level where they are actually competing with the incumbent 'first choice'. It is how quickly (if they can) improve their game which will decide if they ever can compete with the current 1st choice. That is hard enough for a team that just 'treads water' each season but when we are talking about making massive improvements every season it will be harder and harder to achieve.

 

Alderweireld's bullet header against Palace on Boxing Day is one that springs to mind.

On a serious note, JWP's deliveries are genuinely up there with the best in the league, our lack of goal scored from the opportunities he creates are more a slight at our ability in the air than his set-piece skill.

There's a reason that every single commentator and pundit comments on how good his deliveries are. Most of these people are former players who would love to have played with someone with his dead ball skill.

 

I must not be watching then. The amount of ties we get a corner past the front man without skying it past the back post man is unbelievable. He does whip a great free kick in from deep I admit.

You allude to what I am saying. Our current 11 is keeping those academy prospects out of the first choice 11 (and I mean who Koeman would want to select for the big games if they are all available) and we are trying to improve that first 11 year on year so it is going to get increasingly hard for those academy players to reach that level.

It is very different from the argument above about squad options. Yes if we get a decent squad like Arsenal or Man Utd then when we are playing teams at the lower end of the table and we do what they 'used to' do and rest 4 or 5 then our 'weakened' team will surely have more of 'our own'.

One thing is for sure, This season we cannot do the same as last season and field our strongest available 11 in all competitions all season long. Was nail biting watching us in the Carling Cup and FA Cup last season. Every tackle was a worry, Every card was avoidable. We might have just got that extra 2 or even 4 points eh?

 

Disagree with that, we might have just got a Wembley appearance and a shot at a major honour (you know those things we never get and have ONE in our history!)

 

I'll have you know that The Johnstone's Paint Trophy is a major honour. Ask City and Chelsea: they'll never win that!