Wigan away......

We don't need to worry about treading water in the Championship as we will be leaving it behind.

 

Yeah I was also thinking along the same lines as this FieldMarshall.

Again, this will likely to go down like a lead balloon with many - and isn't really what I like, want either, and it doesn't show ambition.

However, a club our size, given our investment / attendances vs other clubs in the division with parachute ££££ / better gates / owners risking the clubs future of going bankrupt, is treading water in the championship something that we can really turn our nose up to?

Getting relegated, without putting up any form of fight for the entire season has really got to me.

 

Me too Westy and I would take the place above relegation to enable us to tread water in an instant, this was all so predictable but now it's staring us in the face it has suddenly become very real, bloody shameful.

 

Whatever division we find ourselves in I'm really waiting to see what happens in the summer - whether we are learning any lessons as a club or if it will be business as usual.

Better to be going down and then coming back up in 2020 or 2021 with some momentum than treading water in the Championship for me, that's something that hasn't changed for me in spite of our predicament - as long as it forces the changes we need in how the club is run.

But, we’re not relegated yet. Next two games are cup finals.

 

Purely conjecture on my part, but I believe that had we have kept one of Wagorn or Garner in the summer we wouldn't be in quite so much of the brown stuff.

The reason being that we were as threatening as a wet lettuce in the opening week & months of the season (and still are) But Garner (for all his faults) is a wily old street fighter who knew how to win his personal battles and gain territory, something neither Harrison or Jackson have looked like doing and could have been used to soften defences from the start or batter them late on.

I'm fairly confident that with one of those two we would have grabbed an extra goal here and there to scrape a win or two and we would have not gone those 14 games without a win... and it was that run of games that sent this squad into a tailspin as we had a manager who began to panic and a group of players at their lowest ebb.. (something the new manager disappointingly has not been able to rectify which I accept is a separate, but equally as important issue) Yes, we got decent money for those two, but at what cost longer term?

I'd also like to throw the comparison out there of Norwich City 2017-18. A side that knocked the ball round well, but at low tempo with no urgency and lots of sideways, backwards passes with little threat or penetration. Basically ITFC under Paul Hurst. The difference they had was Maddison, Murphy & Hoolahan all pop up with goals to stop them from ever going more than 3 or 4 games without a win.. They never spiraled like we have done and that is where we have falen apart. Apologies for the ramble and trudging up more old muck which has already been covered ad infinitum

...Cue Hampy to tell me I'm wrong about everything

 

I agree with you about having wished we'd kept Waghorn(and have said so frequently in the past)Much less fussed about Garner,he benefitted from picking up off Waghorn's scraps and other than that just ran around and fell over a lot.

 

Correct I don't entirely agree with that assessment Scowey. Personnel isn't everything - look at Hull / Preston who have just had a bit of time and look at the impact the right manager has had on Manchester United with the same personnel.

The reasons for us struggling are many and if we'd kept one or the other I don't think it would have made a lot of difference - the two of them together sure, but then we'd be £6m lighter, short on numbers everywhere apart from midfield and there's nothing to say Waghorn wouldn't have got injured early on. Jackson and Harrison have never been given a run in the side and when they have played we've had all sorts of other issues. We have not even been smart with the players we do have.

If you can have the same squad that we have now and add Waghorn and Garner (and they wanted to be at Town), then obviously that's a no brainer. Webster for another £4m has left a hole that still needs filling. Garner on his own I don't think makes much of a difference and 8 goals for £5m (only 4 in the league anyway) is not a return for Derby from Waghorn that we should be too upset about.

McGoldrick is a lot stronger and we let him go for free, why aren't people upset about that? It's not a stick to beat Hurst with is the only answer that I can see to that one.

 

You called that one right Scowey.

 

Have you really got nothing better to do?

 

Have you?

We're all on an internet forum during a weekday when we should be working..

 

McGoldrick is a tricky one. He hadn't had a full injury-free season with us for years, and was by far our highest earner. So, on paper, it seemed a calculated, but sensible risk in letting him go.
It's also interesting to note, that two of our most talented players from last season (McG and Webster), we're both injury ravaged whilst with us, but both have gone on to play a full injury-free season with their new clubs. Add this to all the long term injuries we have had over the last few seasons (including this season), and it it does make you wonder whether our training methods need to be looked at and revamped.

 

Waghorn going was a massive blow - I think if you add his goals + assists last season, it was over 25 in total. That's an insane total to lose. His set piece delivery was wicked, with power pace and in a good area.

McGoldrick I think had to go unfortunately due to wage / injury record and not being willing to move closer. Mick tried repeatedly to get him to move closer, as he was of the opinion the drive wasn't doing McGoldrick any good. Now he's a lot closer to where he's playing, and had a good season injury wise. Might be something in that.

Garner wanted to leave, but scored 10 league goals in 29 starts - that's a good return.

I mean this season our strike force in the league have=
Sears 6
Keane 2
Quaner 0
Jackson 3
Harrison 1

Total = 12, hardly anymore than Garner managed alone.

Give me a player like Garner being a nuisance anyday of the week over Jackson.

 

Agreed. Hardly anyone was complaining about the McGoldrick departure at the time, and he was one of the highest earners at the club so we freed up a portion of the wage bill, but I recognise the argument that the incoming manager should have had his say. But that's the risk you run appointing a manager after a play off run. I personally rated Webster, and I think he would flourish under the style of football we're attempting under Lambert now. Hurst would have undoubtedly benefitted from having Webster at the start of the season, particularly as we only had Chambers as the only fit, recognised centre-back, before Nsiala came in after the Blackburn game. But again, he was injury-prone and if we had acted quicker in the transfer window and signed an experienced Championship centre-back (not cheap I know), we would be in a better situation now.

Garner and Waghorn both wanted to leave this club, so the argument about keeping them both, or even one of them, is purely academic.

 

I'm not really sure what you're getting at here... I think it is widely known and accepted that McGoldrick wanted to leave. We would have all liked him to stay, but he wasn't going to sign a new contract regardless of what was on it or who was in charge.

We miss/haven't replaced his quality, but his departure was at worst mismanaged by Mick, but was inevitable to anyone who follows the club. The sales of Waghorn & Garner were at least within the club's control during the summer

 

The McGoldrick contract was absolutely in our control before it was run down and even once it has I would be surprised if there was even any kind of a discussion about him staying, we still don't have an effective policy on this. The point is that there has been much wrong at the club and it's simplistic to say our predicament is down to selling these two. We have lost far better forwards in recent years for much less money.

Then there is the case about how well they would have done this year, neither of them has set the world alight this season and had they stayed fit they would have been featuring in an Ipswich Town team even weaker in defence and midfield.

 

Nailed it.

 

Regard McGoldrick, back in 14/15 the club turned down a bid larger than the £7 mill that was in the publics eye.

Problem post that, was his injury record and salary. Okay, perhaps it shouldn't have gone into final season ( he was never going to sign a new contract ) and we could argue he should have been sold 1 / 2 years ago but with injuries it was never going to be close to the fee we were once offered.

So I guess you could say perhaps he should have been sold 2016 or 2017 for perhaps £500k-2 mill?! ( throwing a figure out there, wouldn't be too high )

 

Don't remember that Westy and absolutely there is no way we would have got £5m in the summer for McGoldrick but that's no excuse for letting his contract run down, even £1m is a hell of a lot of money in the pot. That's why I think we are far too blase as a club about releasing players and it's still going on.

 

2014/15, he went to Leicester when I was at Derby to complete a deal that didn't go through - the fee at that point was being reported at £7 mill - it was higher than that.

Yeah perhaps he should have been sold 1 / 2 / 3 years back - I guess the issue being when the lad is fit, playing well, he's a top player in this league, and given our spend, how likely are we be to replace what he could give us on the pitch when firing?

Of course we know all too well about the other side.......

 

This is where inspiration and success breeding more success comes into sport. More desire, more enjoyable, more inspired, better training, controlling games = fewer injuries and better performance.