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Off Topic Why you MUST vote Tory!

Discussion in 'Norwich City' started by canary-dave, Mar 19, 2015.

  1. Cruyff's Turn

    Cruyff's Turn Well-Known Member

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    In January I had a PSA test that returned a high reading. In April I had a biopsy. In June I had bone scans. In August they said they hadn't yet got the results despite the lady at NUH saying they would have them the following day. Last month I saw an oncologist. In january I get radiotherapy. How do you think it would have gone if Cameron had a raised PSA? My GP says they don't like people requesting PSA tests because they create too much work.
     
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  2. canary-dave

    canary-dave Well-Known Member

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    Good luck CT, my thoughts are with you! <ok>
     
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  3. K E M P

    K E M P Well-Known Member

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    Mine to CT. all the best.
     
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  4. Cruyff's Turn

    Cruyff's Turn Well-Known Member

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    It's not too bad. I am told small,confined and non aggressive. It makes me wonder how many are wandering about undiagnosed.
     
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  5. General Melchett

    General Melchett Well-Known Member

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    So first off you're saying things are no better than they were under the pre-crash Labour government, regardless of how far to the centre-right they had moved over the 13 years. For the record I can't disagree that they had become almost undistinguishable from the Tory party for the past few years - especially if you ignore all the nasty **** that's being chucked at the poor and vulnerable, you know the sort of stuff that doesn't bat the eyelid of MOST of the "I'm alright Jack" Tory voter.
    To be fair to the tories though, because of the crash (which I also don't blame on labour for yhe main) had labour continued in power things would have also been tougher and as we have already agreed they also wished to follow an austerity path.
    Secondly that Labour is now in the past (for now), we are talking about a Corbyn led opposition and if you're really suggesting you can't tell the difference between the two parties right now I'd suggest you're trying to pull my plonker.
    I thought that was the point I was making? That Corbyn represents an exciting change from that status quo? Read it back I think it was clear?
    Thirdly anyone who actually believes the previous Labour government was to blame for the global financial crisis in my opinion falls into the first category of my post a few pages back that apparently ruffled a few feathers. Just because it was under their watch doesn't mean they were to blame, much as the Iraq war shouldn't be blamed solely on Blair and Labour because if the Tories were in government at the time then they would have done 100%, exactly the same.
    I just said it happened on their watch, I didn't say they were the cause. Not exclusively anyway. Ultimately they cannot be absolved completely because the banks were operating in that way without hindrance or questions from government. Obviously the tories would not have stopped it either but it highlights to me that both parties are chocked full of rich boys with rich friends who were getting minted to the rest of our detriment
    I'm still waiting for someone to tell me something, ANYTHING that actually improved in the past five years? What has got better? I just don't get it?
    The company i work for has had improving profits year on year since 2 years after the crash.
    Business is better for my Dad's engineering firm too.
    A number of workshy scroungers get a little less
    I have visited London less in the last 5 years than the preceding 5.

    Most other things are pretty incidental,
    E. G. Cheaper petrol - nought to do with our government, ditto cheaper food because of reduced transport costs

    But this is why I often have a large degree of apathy to either party, neither seems to make a lot of difference to my day to day life, except to make it harder!

    Bah!
     
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    ColkOfTheBarclay likes this.
  6. General Melchett

    General Melchett Well-Known Member

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    That's good to hear all the best chap

    Bah!
     
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  7. oldcanariesfan

    oldcanariesfan Well-Known Member

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    I've been through it CT. Had 7 weeks of chemo and radio at Addenbrokes in 2010. It's tough mate - gruelling, but you will get through it.

    Be strong and stay positive. Good luck to you CT.
     
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  8. Cruyff's Turn

    Cruyff's Turn Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, I'm guessing mine isn;t as bad as yours was because I am only having hormone injections and radiotherapy, no chemo.
     
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  9. THURNBY YELLOW

    THURNBY YELLOW Well-Known Member

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    I am pretty bereft with things really. This lot will divide the country in a way like we haven't seen before and all the unpleasantness that was diluted under the coalition is now seeping to the surface. Sorry chaps but Mr Corbyn is not the answer, if the bulk of his own Parliamentary Party think that, then I think they are better placed than us to judge. The SNP are a divisive rabble that could cause ructions and they are totally self-interested in this next referendum, then what? Oil dries up, Scottish economy f*cked, would they care? No!
    And to finish, Tim Farron is new to the role and I am waiting for the big idea(s), Farage - no comment because it doesn't need one. This is as bad as it has ever been surely?
     
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  10. General Melchett

    General Melchett Well-Known Member

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    But could they think that because they are practically as right thinking as most Tories and are worried that he might stop the rich (Them) continuing to milk the poor? That's vested interest and a judgment based on continuing to line their own pockets. He may not be the answer, but unfortunately nor were new Labour or the Tories.

    Bah!
     
    #1910
    Tony_Munky_Canary likes this.
  11. JKCanary

    JKCanary Guest

    Cameron at the Tory Conference:
    "Do you know, that in our country today, even if they have exactly the same qualifications, people with white-sounding names are nearly twice as likely to get callbacks for jobs than people with ethnic-sounding names? One young black girl had to change her name to Elizabeth before she got any calls to interviews. That, in 21st century Britain, is disgraceful ... I want us to end discrimination and finish the fight for real equality in our country today...”.


    Your words are wind, Dave. The Tories have cut the Equality and Human Rights Commission budget from £70m to £17m.
     
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  12. JKCanary

    JKCanary Guest

    Cameron vs Jon Snow on Saudi dealings:

    Jon Snow: You have been asked to intercede with the Saudis over the 17-year-old boy who was arrested when he was 14 and who faces execution and crucifixion. Have you?

    David Cameron: We have raised this as a government.

    JS: Have you personally?

    DC: No, the Foreign Secretary has raised this. Our embassy has raised this. We have raised this in the proper way. I’ll look to see if there is an opportunity for me to raise this as well. But we oppose the death penalty anywhere and everywhere and we make that clear in all our international contacts.

    JS: But that’s curious because we in November did a deal with the Saudis that we would back them joining the Human Rights Council of the United Nations, providing they backed us. This sounds a bit squalid for one of the most human rights abusing regimes on earth.

    DC: We completely disagree with them about the punishment routines, about the death penalty, about those issues and we raise them.

    JS: Why did you do this deal then? They are not the right sort of people to be doing any sort of a deal on human rights.

    DC: We totally oppose their record in that area.

    JS: Why did we do it?

    DC: Well, I said we totally oppose their record.

    JS: No, why did we do it?

    DC: I have answered that question.

    JS: Well that isn’t an answer, is it? I mean, we have done a horrid deal that was very well exposed in the Financial Times.

    DC: We have a relationship with Saudi Arabia and if you want to know why I’ll tell you why.

    It is because we receive from them important intelligence and security information that keeps us safe.

    JS: Are we sure Prime Minster that they are not actually some elements of them, within the clerics and elsewhere, the Wahhabi radicals, involved actually in fuelling the very people we are trying defeat in Isis and the rest?

    DC: I will answer that very directly because I think you are asking a very important question.

    But, the reason we have the relationship is our own national security. I can think of one occasion since I’ve been prime minister where a bomb that would have potentially blown up over Britain was stopped because of intelligence we got from Saudi Arabia.

    Of course it would be easier for me to come on your programme and say: ‘I’m not having anything to do with these people, it’s all terribly difficult etcetera etcetera.’ For me, Britain’s national security and our people’s security comes first.

    Second question: Saudi Arabia itself actually has quite a good record of de-radicalising people who have become radical terrorists and jihadists. It has quite a good record of de-radicalising them but if you are asking….

    JS: That’s internal security. What they have done is to export a great deal of them out to Pakistan…

    DC: Are we doing enough to say we need to have a version of Islam that properly promotes peace and tolerance and does not in any way encourage hatred of other religions, or demonisation of Jews, or that provides a backdrop to the radicalisation that can take place that is something we need to do far more of and we are doing in our own country and we need to do more of that in discussions we have with other countries, including Saudi Arabia and I have started on that process.
     
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  13. General Melchett

    General Melchett Well-Known Member

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    Our esteemed leader making us all proud once again!

    They have oil so all is well! (This is in no way an invite for a pun fest!)

    Bah!
     
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  14. Tony_Munky_Canary

    Tony_Munky_Canary Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, but (in my opinion) the part I've highlighted in bold is just nonsense. In this particular issue Kemp had asked the forum if anyone would be happy should we ditch Trident and head off into the future as a nuclear free nation, I answered him that I most certainly would, gave my reasons why and then in return asked him if he'd be happy if we actually ever used them or if he really deep down thought it was a necessity, pretty reasonable of me I'd have thought on a debating forum. I'm sorry, but the fact he "couldn't bother" to reply and instead chose to go to the effort of putting me on ignore me strikes me as debating at it's very worst. And still he can't answer! He raised the issue initially, so why not follow it up and tell me why he thinks I'm wrong and he's right with why he believes what he believes? That just suggests to me that he perhaps doesn't really believe what he claims to believe in when he actually thinks about it - and if he does why not have the courage to back it up?

    All this rubbish about "personal attacks" is just that as well, rubbish, and is just used an an excuse when someone knows they are losing the argument and can't come up with anything better. I just want to have some debate based on facts and I am fascinated to hear why people believe the things that they purport to and find it frustrating when people just chuck a comment out there with no substance and then don't bother attempting to give it any gravitas - "Corbyn has lurched too far to the left" for example.

    And as for the list of achievements of the Tories you list above, fair enough, you make some decent points - particularly #6 (have we ever been any good under a Labour government??), though I would say some of them are perhaps slightly contentious and up for debate and are dependent on which particular set of statistics you are measuring them by - and I also wonder how much credit the Tories can actually take from some of those you list, as much as I'm certain they love to.

    Here's a slightly shorter list that I must admit doesn't go into any local issues:
    - how many people were dependent on food banks under the last Labour government? (more than one million people using them in a country like the UK is an absolute disgrace)
    - what happened to us slashing our annual borrowing? (it's higher than ever in our history and continuing to rise)
    - what happened to slashing net immigration? (risen year on year every year making an absolute mockery of the 'targets' that were originally outlined in the 2010 maifesto)
    - for what's it's actually worth, what happened to the UK's AAA rating? (downgraded in 2012, funny that we never hear about that any more don't you think?)
    - what happened to the controls on banker's bonuses etc? (anyone?)
    - what happened to this big crackdown on non-doms and tax avoidance of major corporations? (again, anyone??)
    - what happened to all the affordable housing that was going to be built to help first-time buyers get their feet on the housing ladder? (all that has happened is that property has become more and more unaffordable to the average person on the street whilst so called 'developers' who are fortunate enough to be able to partake in such an elitist industry hoover up property and rent them out at extrotionate rates in the name of profit).
    - you say "food is relatively cheaper", not compared to the relative increase (or lack of) in people's earning it's not. (As I said earlier I, along with a great number of public sector workers have not received a penny in pay rises in more than four years, and in fact due to the change in the terms of my contract re: pensions etc I am actually £45 a month worse off than I was five years ago!!)
    - how many of those "more people in employment" are on zero-hours contracts, and how frequently were they used under Labour?
    - oh, and a slighly more personal one to end with - my three year old daughter was a bit under the weather yesterday and running a bit of a temperature overnight and off her food this morning so the wife phoned up when the surgery opens bang on 8:30 this morning to get her an appointment to get checked out by a doctor today. The best they can do is see her next Wednesday unless we take her to the A&E walk-in centre at the hospital about 20 minutes drive away - God bless all that "increased NHS funding in real and absolute terms" eh?

    Of course it's entirely your prerogative if you don't want to answer any of the points I list above, but for the sake of decent debate it would be good if someone could at least have a go - you don't want nasty old me "badgering and taunting" people just to get a response now do you?

    And as for your comment asking if I'd "be happy living on animal farm" - talk about putting words into other people's mouths <doh> You say that "complaining doesn't solve much", what does that mean? I'm sorry but I have a voice and I am prepared to use it if I believe in something strongly enough in the vague hope that maybe, just maybe somebody might actually take in what I (and plenty of others) are trying to say and come to the conclusion that we might just have a point after all. I won't be holding my breath, most people seem so beligerently blinkered in their thinking that they won't shift even in the face of some pretty strong argument - and yes, I know I too fit into that final bracket, however I have yet to see any convincing argument to make me feel any different.
     
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    Last edited: Oct 8, 2015
  15. Norfolkbhoy

    Norfolkbhoy Well-Known Member

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    OK here goes in terms of your list:
    1 Couldn't agree more -absolute disgrace the anyone in the UK has to rely on a food bank
    2.& 4 both fair points but bear in mind your previous argument that the crash in 2008 was not the fault of the Labour government of the day but due to global conditions. I imagine that the Tories would use a very similar line of argument regarding the macro-economy. You can't have it both ways - both Labour and the Tories have some share of responsibility for the macro-economy but neither can totally control world economic events
    3. That was never going to be possible with freedom of movement within the EU. If any Govt wishes to change it we'll have to alter the EU ort leave it.
    4 & 5 Again I have to agree with you - the Government could definitely do better - see my earlier post for my thoughts on the national living wage and tax affairs of the multi-national corporations
    6 My personal opinion is that the Governments benefit cap should help the rental sector in the longer term as it will effectively reduce the market price for properties. Given the population growth we have experienced combined with the modern demographic of far more singletons single parents it is always going to be difficult for the builders to keep up. I disagree with the current policy of encouraging Housing associations to sell off their stock at a reduced price as it makes reinvestment more difficult. The latest policy announced last week should in theory free up some housing stock in new developments for FTB's but at the expense of social renters which I am not convinced will be a huge help. I honestly don't know how this problem can be quickly fixed but I do think that housing is one of the main problems in the UK.
    7. For the majority of people food is relatively cheaper is generally cheaper than it was five years ago and whilst many in the public sector have have not had a pay rise many other people have.
    8. I honestly don't know the stats pn zero hours contracts and the comparative levels over the past three Governments. Again I have previously posted my views on the subject on here and I'd say they are pretty much in line with yours.
    9. Sorry your daughter was unwell and hope she is OK (I have a 3 year old daughter as well). The point I was trying to make in my later post about the NHS was that whilst any sane person will accept that it could be better it is also the case that it has been protected by successive Governments who have thrown an awful lot of money at it. Whether this money has been used wisely is of course another debate...Regardless I would still rather be ill today and take my chances with the 2015 NHS than back in the 80's or 90's. I think the NHS is a fantastic resource and generally does a brilliant job. I am sure everyone has a story about a long wait in A & E or lack of available appointments but on the balance of things considering the huge amount of strain it is under I reckon they do pretty well.

    My post was a direct response to your offering of "is anything better than 5 years ago?". You asked. I answered. There is absolutely loads that is better now than 5 years ago.I accept that the world is not perfect and that things could be better but I also acknowledge that living in Norfolk in 2015 makes me one of the most privileged people in history and I can appreciate how lucky I am.

    I do find it wearisome when people complain all of the time and statements like "nothing is better" do make me wonder how people can get up in the morning and face the day! Following Norwich I try to find the positives where I can elsewhere as I know there are always disappointments round the corner.

    About the "badgering" comment.- you ask a question, I answer it. then you raise some further questions and finish of by saying "its entirely your prerogative if you don't want to answer..." which comes across a bit as "I am right, I know I am and you no doubt will be too cowed by my magnificent points to try to answer them". I presume that you don't mean to come across as a bit of a keyboard warrior but maybe you can see where I'm coming from?
     
    #1915
  16. Tony_Munky_Canary

    Tony_Munky_Canary Well-Known Member

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    Excellent post NB, and exactly the kind of response I was hoping for - actually backing up beliefs with more than soundbites from the (largely) right-wing press so thank you, and I do agree with lots of what you say.

    Not got time for a full and proper response myself right now - I might get round to that later on - but I will just say that I totally agree with what you say in your final paragraph and I accept I did come across somewhat antagonistically with my "your prerogative if you want to answer or not" line, though in my defence that comment wasn't aimed specifically at you, more of an open invite to members of the forum, however I accept how it may have sounded so take your comment fully on board <ok>

    I'd also just add that some of my more sweeping generalisations such "nothing has improved", "there are only two types of Tory voter" shouldn't be taken completely literally, of course I employed a certain amount of hyperbole in each of those statements and whilst they were not intended to be accepted word-for-word I stand by my general overall statement - in other words I certainly think far more bad things have happened in the past five years under a Tory led government that outweigh the good. And it's absolutely fine for you to find what you consider to be overly negative criticisms of the past five years "tiresome", but at least I have tried to explain why I think things haven't improved/have worsened which is more than those who just bang on about "the mess the previous Labour government left us in" without providing a single shred of evidence to support it.
     
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    Last edited: Oct 8, 2015
  17. Cruyff's Turn

    Cruyff's Turn Well-Known Member

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    I think that the question that you need to ask re the NHS is would you rather be ill in 2015 compared to 2010? The answer will be given you by virtually every healthcare professional would be 2010. Since the Coalition, and now even more so under the present government waiting times are increasing and we are getting doublespeak. If you take cancer we are told that you will be referred in 30days. Mine took 75 after a high PSA test. Now GP's are being offered cash incentives to NOT refer patients on. A lot of this is putting the onus on the patient and unless they are prepared to push their GP, or like me have an honest and honourable one then they are going to be put off.
     
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  18. BobbyD

    BobbyD President

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    Not one to get all political but i'm a bit like the General. I don't have a political stance, i don't really vote as i believe to a certain extent all parties are just in it for themselves and i'm quite apathetic about it all.

    With respect to the arguments regarding heres was life was like under labour and the Tories are really hurting people here is my take on it all:

    - I was initially happy at the cutting off benefits with the Tories. I think something needed to be done to incentivise working over just taking benefits.
    - Do i think benefits should be further cut this round, no i do not and i think NB's idea of raising the living wage for companies that employ over x amount of people is a very good idea (debateable how useful that would be as i think corporations would just cut jobs in order to make the savings but we should be doing something)
    - People who mention that lives have got harder than under Labour. That's what happens when the government has no money (I hear Tories have spent more but you can't just reverse Labour policies with immediate effect or make redundancies without costs not withstanding all the build up of interest). Even if labour was in charge i do not believe that life would be better now than 5-10 years ago which is the argument being made
    - I am more than certain that if it was the reverse and it was the Tories who were in charge from 97-> 2008 when there was growth all over the world, life would be slightly worse off then (certainly not handing out money like no tomorrow) but we wouldn't be in as much pain now as there would be more in the coffers.
    - I don't agree with the corporation tax cuts or with Tories just helping big business. I haven't been following much on zero hours contracts and again some legislation needs to be created to prevent these contracts being abused.
    - As for food banks, again i'm sure we would have seen record numbers and an increase in people using foodbanks if Labour has been in power for the past 5 years purely because this country is getting poorer!.
    - What we want to avoid is becoming like Greece so i don't agree with spending our way out of trouble!
     
    #1918
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  19. Home on the range canary

    Home on the range canary Well-Known Member

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    As someone who works in the NHS I'd just about rather be seen now as the developments are so rapid that treatments become more effective (almost 50% of what is taught to medical undergraduates in year1 of their training is out of date by the time they reach year 5.

    Access to the NHS is more difficult and I think this is partially attributable to Blair's spin on waiting list targets (every govt does it, but his ridiculous spin just made it worse and we are seeing the implications as the "spin" just gets carried forward each time) We would have to see patients for an "assessment" within 4 weeks, this was meaningless most of the time, as the person was put back on a waiting list, when they reached the top of the W/L they were then assessed properly and may or may not have received immediate treatment. The problem is that successive governments spin the figures and put in false markers of efficiency which adds further delays and levels of admin that is unnecessary and gets in the way of patient care- it is more than a little frustrating!!!
     
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  20. JKCanary

    JKCanary Guest

    On the subject of the state of the NHS:

    NHS facing £2bn deficit.
    Trusts in England run up almost £1bn deficit in three months
    Financial position described by regulators as worst in a generation

    http://www.theguardian.com/society/...and-run-up-almost-1bn-deficit-in-three-months


    Where's all that funding going that Dave and Gideon promised? Withheld no doubt so that the sleepwalk into full-on privatisation can continue.
    Ugh.

    EDIT: was talking to my GF (an accountant at a major London hospital) about this last night. She is disgusted by the Tories' recent treatment of the NHS, constantly cutting additional funding for trusts (like the Cancer Drugs Fund for example) and is not at all surprised at the deficit news.
     
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    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 9, 2015

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