Regarding tuition fees, all further education and higher education should be free and good grants should be given to support the young people doing it.
Sorry Gambia, but we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. A university education is really only suited to probably around 30% of school leavers and more would have a better chance of gaining worthwhile employment by taking up an apprenticeship, provided there was a guaranteed job if successfully completing the course. We are always going to need tradespeople (plumbers, electricians, roofers, car mechanics, hairdressers etc) and some children would be better advised to pursue a trade as a worthwhile occupation I worked at a university and quite a few students were there just to get away from Mum and Dad and to have a good time - furthering their education was of secondary importance in their eyes. Also, a lot of universities now have 'mature students', so are you saying that they shouldn't get grants to assist them in their studies????
Your comment seems to have nothing to do with the fees JR. Gambia wasn't saying everyone should go to uni, he was saying they shouldn't be made to go into ridiculous amounts of debt to go there. Ironically, since the fees have been introduced more people are going to uni than ever before! I do agree with you that too many people just go to have a good time. All education should be free. It's a human right in my opinion! It amazes me how many student aged people follow the Tories despite their clear disdain for anyone below the age of 35! The real issue is that at college level they only care about the number of people they get into uni's because that reflects well on them. Everything is geared towards preparing you for uni. I didn't want to go at the age of 18 and was essential ignored by my tutor because of it. I'm going this year now that I've had time to think about what I really want to do in life. I do agree here should be more encouragement to go into trades, the issue is those sort of jobs have been looked down on for the last 20 years as everyone is encouraged to go into the business sector. becoming a builder or a plumber isn't "cool" and is left to the lowest achievers because a lot of people reckon it's beneath them. It all stems from classism which is something the Tories love!
Ok I agree with you completely JR., vocational education was screwed in the late eighties and nineties when the university population exploded in a political farce to keep young people off the dole. I can't provide figures but I believe that when I went to uni in the 70's only 9% of the student population went to HE. By the time Blair left it was 49%. Even taking into account the general increase in educational productivity over that period of time such a result was a very bloated figure, and totally unrepresentative of the academic abilities of those involved. It also betrayed them to a considerable extent in that they had very few real opportunities for development after Uni. It has always appeared to me that Vocational education has been badly handled by all politicians in the UK irregardless of party. After ww2 there was a real desire to create and develop a system of voc ed in the Seconday School system unfortunately this was largely based on class and has thankfully been swept away. Uni education is only suitable for a few perhaps 20% of the student population. We have ignored Voc education and it has cost us big time. There seems to still be a hang up about being a skilled technician against an academic in Uni. I think it all goes back to the class system of thinking. If you compare Norway and Germany regarding technical education against the UK its embarrassing. Their economies are strong and technically forward looking. Free education for for those who are good academics and technicians is something I believe can only be good for the UK long term. Weeding out the dross who just want to have three years on the p*** is totally necessary.
Apologies Gambia - I seem to have completely misunderstood your post. Yes, the level of debt incurred by a lot of students is absurd (I'd love to know the percentage who will never pay it back though, because they never earn enough!!!) and I totally agree that a lot of the population somehow think a person who earns their living by 'using their hands' as opposed to 'using their brain' is a lesser person - wtf??? Employers regularly complain that employees who have had a university education lack interpersonal skills and such like. Any business needs everyone to survive - from the cleaner to the CEO and I knew other members of staff at Uni, who would 'sneer' at other members of staff who were plumbers, electricians etc, but would be the first to complain if the toilets were blocked or the lights didn't work!!!! The drive to give a university education to the masses has hampered this country's development and the sooner that changes the better - not that I think it will.
As someone who does work within the building industry, I can tell you that a skilled plumber working inside the M25 probably earns a fecking site more PA than most who post on here.
That's the Tory outlook though isn't it,judging people by what they earn. I am constantly meeting well heeled people who are as miserable as feck. Yes they can afford all the latest baubles thrust at them by the marketing wonks but their lives are usually blighted by what they have to do to get there. I too had a substantial education but I went into business on my own. I expect some tradesmen have earned more than me,I doubt however if they are as happy,and more importantly have not been these last forty years. To return to the OP I se that it is now accepted (Even by the D Telegraph!) That Miliband won the Paxo interviews. On The Politics show yesterday they were saying the Tory campaign is in trouble. Dave exposed as the useless twat that he is?
Excellent CT!!! Someone once suggested that I should go and work in London for a while to earn some serious money. NO way, job satisfaction and life/work balance are FAR more important than financial reward!!
Money is not everything and job satisfaction is definitely more important. I once spoke to someone on a train that commuted from Sheffield to London every day - for the money!
Exactly my point Thurnby and they were probably adding a minimum of 4 to 5 hours onto their working day, not to mention the cost of travelling!!!
I Recall getting the 0630 from Lowestoft to London one morning. At Oulton Broad three people got on and sat opposite. The first question one asked was "What time did you get home last night? Answer 930! Nine hours later they were back on the train again. You must be in dire straits to do that.
6.30am start is ridiculous if they're getting home at 9.30pm However, while obviously I'd rather be working shorter hours, because I'm young I've resigned myself to the fact that I need to work hard now so that I can relax a bit later. I leave for work about 8.45am, commute is 40 mins in London and regularly don't get back until about 7.30-8pm, and occasionally much later. But I enjoy the work, it's busy and the day flies by. If you were miserable and working long hours to no clear goal other than just to keep ticking over then I agree that would be completely pointless.
You'd be home sooner, if you spent more time working rather than composing lengthy diatribes on here!!!!
Probably true... Though I object to my posts being called "diatribes"! I don't think I really attack anyone
No that's true, I was thinking more along the lines of a long lasting string of words of which the meaning was clear in the first few lines
I'm not sure Guru would agree that you don't attack anybody, though I have to admit that your attacks on him were well disguised as "praise!"
Now I really must protest. I only ever tried to get Guru to clarify what he was saying and iron-out the odd contradiction/invention in his posts. Absolutely nothing untoward intended. Nothing at all. And I certainly wasn't deliberately aggravating him to pick holes in his comments or make him feel silly, I was trying to help him ensure that he made sense. And if helping people is being patronising, then what can you do?...
