Why we shouldn't re-sign Carroll.

We were offering £13m or so for de Jong. He is an exctiing young prospect who has never played in the Premiership or in any league of comparable quality. While not risk free, Carroll would strike me as a much better bet. He has played in the Premiership: brilliantly for half a season, poorly for most of a season, and then very well for the last part of last season.

De Jong would be far more likely to turn out not to be able to make the step up than Carroll would be to turn out to be a poor striker after all

 

The striker position should be a massive priority. Apart from Ba and Cisse there's no quality at all, and if one of them gets injured we're screwed (Not even mentioning the fact that they still might qualify for the ACON). I don't know if Carroll is the right player or not, but I do know that the scouting and coaching team know far more about football than you or I, so I tend to side with them.

 

He did do well for us, 11 in 19 not too shabby. He did do poorly for Liverpool for the rest of that season (2 goals /7). Next season he was shocking, and people saying Liverpool didn't play to his style, I think, are thus suggesting we change our style to make him work, or else they've forgotten as a team we have changed quite dramatically in terms of personnel etc, so it's hardly worth subjectively battering those who think he'd not work. I genuinely detest the idea he had a "good last part of the season", because he scored in 3/4 games(I believe 2 weren't even in the premier league). So "last part" is defined as a 4/38 (2/19, 1/9.5) slice of a season.


Considering all that I have mentioned in both posts, in conjunction with Graham Carr's scouting ability, I think Carroll is as big a risk, if not bigger. Lest not we forget I mentioned his behaviour, which nobody else seems concerned about...

 

I agree to an extent, and indeed have suggested the very same thing above, but why bother discussing football, or having an opinion at all, if you care to just fall into line with that statement as the dead end of the argument? But, as I've said, it's probably useless saying our scouting team had much to do with any Carroll interest. To the best of my knowledge, they have been looking at targets oversees. Coaching wise, Pardew has said they aren't even involved, either. That worries me, because our scouts have found gems.

How about finally sorting the CBs? That is surely the most sorely absent parts, considering we have lots of players who have the ability to play up front. Even Shola has got to beat potentially having Danny Simpson, James.T, Perchy or R.Taylor etc being forced to play CB with Williamson?
I would like a striker, but the above is a genuine priority. Getting someone better to fill either left back or right back is probably above a striker also.

 

The reason we shouldn't sign Carroll is because we could have Victor Moses for half the price, he fits the system better. Would look great having him and ben arfa on the wings with Cisse in the middle!

 

Well put but I'd disagree quite strongly what's suggested in that posted comment on him. Each to their own of course but I have to say that it is not the main reason he struggled at Liverpool until the end of the season. The reasons for his struggles are down to a combination of factors in my opinion. None of them are to do with teams needing to play a long ball.

Certainly one of the main issues he had was once they put him in, their centre backs and full backs immediately started playing hoofball which just doesn't suit his game. Once Gerrard came back and dictated their play, he saw a lot more balls coming into his feet, thigh and chest which he is very good at holding and laying off or getting dangerous free kicks.

Another obvious problem he has had is pressure. You can't underestimate how much pressure is heaped when you move for 35m to a club with one of the richest histories in the land.

I also think the lad was homesick and the whole saga how it came about had an effect on him. Its very easy for people to say "ah poor Andy, he's only getting 80k a week for ****s sake". The reality is sometimes different in that they can experience many of the same isses as your average joe on the street when moving away from your hometown.

I do get frustrated with the notion that him arriving results in hoofball. To be honest I laugh at it because its simply not true. Provided the coaches do their job the only ones who'll need educating in that sense are the defenders. To be fair to Dalglish I saw him remostrating with the likes of Carragher to stop hitting the 60 yard missiles. Carroll is perfectly comfortable playing in a team who keep it down.

As for the goals he scored for us not sure of the relevance to be fair. We were a team in transition from the moment he became first choice. Hughton had made it quite clear he wanted a more direct approach to get us out of the championship and then a gradual move towards carpet football. So have we actually seen Carroll play in a passing team? Not in league football but if any of you have watched the U21's over the last few years, he played centrally as part of a three pronged attack and linked extremely well with a certain Jack Wiltshire. Jack wasn't playing many aerial balls to big Andy!

He'd a great option for us to have would fit perfectly into our set up for me.

 

The OP basically states all of the reasons I think we SHOULD sign him. Cisse and Ba scored a great number of goals from through balls and build up play last year, Cisse in particular scored 4 or 5, and Ba at least 3 from through balls alone. However, neither of them scored a goal from a set play. Carroll gives us something we don't already have. This season we've seen Shola come on and completely change games, when our original game plan wasn't working, Sunderland, Bolton, Spurs to name a few. Carroll can do the job Shola does, and do it better, with more energy and power. We're kidding ourselves if we think we can revert to an entire passing game, sometimes it just does not work. Carroll offers a completely alternative game style and way to score goals. He should be especially useful in European games, where some of the smaller continental defenders won't know what to do with him.

 

I'm not saying we shouldn't discuss it, just that there are other things to consider before getting all negative about it.

I agree we need another CB coming in, I was very concerned about it at the start of last season, and if no one comes in this season it's a massive failure on the managements part. We're very weak at both ends of the pitch in terms of cover. We may have lots of players who have the ability to play up front, but none of them are any good, and that's the same problem at the back really. Ameobi is about as good a CF as Perch is a CB. The rest of them aren't even worth mentioning.

 

Yeah I think that's a fair enough view point, and Davey makes a good point too. The obvious problem about the pressure though Pouchy, is having beggared off, how much pressure will be on his shoulders when he returns with a possible £16 million fee? I really can't imagine him playing ahead of Ba and Cisse, who I just think are a cut above Carroll's current level. If we go out of Europe early on, his games would dwindle unless some serious injuries occurred, so he'd be stuck playing the same role as he did at Liverpool, with pretty much the same pressure.

Whether or not he suits hoofball, I think having Nolan, Barton etc still suited his game much more than our current crop will, and more than that, they perhaps created the kind of environment he'd be better suited to. I doubt Cabaye or Ben Arfa will be taking him into their homes for a night of booze and orgies!

Overall, I don't think he's ever worth around 15 million and there are much cheaper strikers out there who I think would be better value, and bring more to the team than reverting to the career path of Peter Crouch (play some unimportant games, then becomes a sub "option" when the team are desperate for a goal with 3 mins left). I question the wisdom of paying anywhere approaching the offers we've supposedly made for someone who won't actually immediately improve our first team.

 

Getting into our team is another question altogether. Of course we play an awful lot of games this year so that is one way round it but they'll want to play in the big ones. How happy he'll be as third choice is anyones guess. I get the point about pressure too. I think he did struggle massively under it but maybe he wouldn't find it quite so troubling here. The spotlight would be less for me bar the bubble of Newcastle, not much is now expected and he'll be driven to do well.

I look at the "who he was playing with" side of things slightly differently. I liked Barton and Nolan, they were very good for us. We have better players now and all that means to me is more chances and a better quality of chance as far as strikers go. Benni in particular is someone I'd see linking up with him very well. He likes a target man to bounce off and has an excellent on field relationship with benzema at national level and previously at Lyon. As for his off field activites, we have to be fair to the lad. He has really sorted himself out in that regard. He'd shown signs of maturing while with us but the move seemed to set that back. I wonder how much was linked to his homesickness. I think footballers are like sheep though, they fall in with whatever the situation is and follow the crowd.

I think he would immediately improve our first but thats just a personal opinion. He'd immediately give our attack a different dimension and widen Pardews tactical options significantly to me.

I wouldn't lose any sleep if we didn't get him and went for a cheaper option, but I think it would be terrific business at anything under 16m-18m given the fee we received.

 

Well we do like a good Ba!

Everything you said is absolutely reasonable (except the price, considering Liverpool have blurted out they don't want him now, and the ensuing ****fit has meant we should be in a position to drag his price down, especially with nobody else really bothered at the moment. Really think Mike should be playing it slow and biding his time if we really want him that bad, rather than what's turning out to be a very public exercise of desperation!). One thing I have to mention now, is that if Hoillett can't give 50K wages with a much smaller transfer fee, I'm not sure how it looks giving Liverpool £15 million and giving Andy 50K! Carroll would have to take a bigger wage cut than the bandied about figures to make this a good deal.

 

I've said from the start I don't see how this can happen because of the fee and wages. The fee you can maybe overcome by consoling yourself with the 35m banked. Though like you say, although I'd pay 16m-18m for him, I'd be hoping for a bit less given the amateur showing of hand by Liverpool. All said and done though the lad is on 80K! We won't give him that and I'd be massively surprised if he fancies taking a wage cut. This then means a loan with Liverpool subsidising his wages. Both unlikely. I'm not being deliberately negative, hell I'd love him here, but I just think there are a number of factors which make it more unlikely than likely.

I get what you say about Hoilett but we don't even know if its true to be fair to both parties. There are equally as many rumours saying we were unimpressed with his attitude in the talks. I don't know the truth of it but I'd like him too!

In both cases I see it being a case of them needing to fall in line with our current structure, and probably being unwilling/unable to.

 

I don't think the wages are an insurmountable barrier.

Nobody is going to pay Carroll £80k/week for the remainder of his contract. If Liverpool want to sell him (which they appear to) they will have to bung him a couple of million quid as part of the transfer deal to agree to accept £40k/week.

This has the advantage that the papers can report that Carroll took a massive salary cut to come back to Newcastle, which will make all us fans go warm and runny inside.

 

Possibly but how many more hits are Liverpool going to be willing to take in terms of his transfer. I'd love for something to be sorted but we're so far apart I think it'll be tough. The maximum I could see us stretching to for Carroll is 50K. 30k a week difference. There is a big jump to be met, and like you say the only feasible and realistic option is Liverpool sticking 2m or so in his pocket. He would do it but would Liverpool is the question. It depends how serious the Americans are about making this work. They are crazy enough and I suppose to write off the last two years as an error, write off the bad debt and start over may be acceptable to a team of men who have paid 35m for a striker worth no where near it, and then show their hand when they want rid of him!.

 

Been said but there are some delusional fans on here. We played long ball at least half of the time last season. Sure when we play good football, it's very good, but this myth that we don't do long ball any more is nonsense.

 

Pardew has said many times, we play whatever style of football will get us the win in that particular game. His philosophy since arriving has been possession football. That's no surprise because all the successful PL teams play that way. But its always good to have a few strings to your bow. Take Man U at home. We went long a lot in the 3-0 win, a hell of a lot. But it was the way we went long that was important. Pardew watched them struggle against a direct and physical Blackburn team and decided he was having some of that. He didn't just copy their tactics though, only the part in them failing to deal with direct balls. Once we got up into the final third we played our normal passing stuff.

We need to be flexible is his mantra and the Man U type stuff is just good management to me. He is judged on results and at times must get them. Obviously overall we're a passing side and that's what I'd expect. I don't wanna watch route one like Fat Sam non stop. I don't think any of our fans tdo as it goes against the clubs footballing ethos. But a bit now and again to exploit a teams weaknesses is just fine.

 

Can't add anything to that.

 

I'm concerned about his behaviour, I think there was an improvement because he left Newcastle, he's managed to get into less trouble, but I would never have him down as being a dedicated professional footballer.

 

Well put LTF.

 

Tends to think of himself as a professional Playboy. Nolan was a big help to him while he was still up here.