Really? OK. - I assumed it was a name change, due to the writing style which, if you are right, must be nothing but coincidence. And on that note, perhaps it might be more appropriate for me to extend a warm welcome to the forum to you Robin v B !!
Red Bull are perfectly within the rules asking Webber to hold station. A lot of people are likening this to the Ferrari incident at Hockenheim - this is completely dissimilar. For one this was right at the end of the race whereas the Ferrari one was half way through the race. Also I feel it is far worse asking a driver to PULL OVER rather than just holding station. I was angry with the Ferrari situation but can see why Horner did what he did! Another argument is that even though Red Bull have said they dissaprove of team orders, now that they are legal they may as well use them as other team will. It is like a team not using the DRS because they dont agree with it - now you dont see that!!! The last and most important point is that Webber has said that he did not listen to his team and kept on pursuing Vettel until the end. The fact that Webber did not pass means that the people who say "Webber would have got through" are completely WRONG. He ignored the team orders so the outcome was the same as had they not told him to maintain the gap!!!!!! So to sum up, what they did was not nearly as bad as Ferrari, and I agree with Horner that it had to be done for the TEAM (there is no I in team Mark), as they could not risk a repeat of Turkey '10. Webber has a history of being a bit careless when overtaking (like Hamilton) so why risk throwing away all these points. P.S. If the roles where reversed it WOULD have been exactly the same!!!!
Your warm welcome is very much appreciated Mr Cosicave. Been a 37 yr long observer of F1 though not as closely these days and allied to not being able to recognise nearly half of the current crop of drivers, I can't say I see much benefit in having silly aids like DRS or KERs and for my sins, now spend most of my talking time on the Arsenal board It's nice on Not 606 though. Discussions are far more constructive than even on the BBC's own F1 site where WUMS enjoy parity with seriously interested members. Gave up P-F1 an eternity ago because of fanboys and hecklers. You take care now
My point was to dispute the level playing field comment from SilverArrow. The reality is that none of us actually know who whether there is one or not. However, on the balance of available information, regardless of source, most people have the impression Seb is no.1.
Thanks for your reply Robin v B. And welcome back to F1! I don't keep up with footie these days but it seems Bergkamp is still very popular around these parts: expect your name-sake to make an appearance any time soon… And also, welcome to ColinSmith11, who makes a different point, although I wouldn't be quite so hard on Webber's driving! I also feel that in spite of what has been said, Webber actually did comply with Horner's order - albeit belatedly - but drove right up to Vettel in an attempt to demonstrate that he could have passed him for second place. However, I believe circumstances are such that had he done so, he could have been facing an internal enquiry within the team and a severe dressing down from its senior management, as well as further jeopardising his future within the team, which is already tenuous enough… - Hi Colin!
yeah, but my point is that the only reason people think this is because Mark has sewn it into their heads that this is so, because he played everyone over the front wing which he didn't want, and RBR reaction to the Turkey incident, which I firmly believe was originally caused by the pig-headed arrogance of Webber and his weavy defending, don't try and tell me he didn't as there is no way that he was on the racing line when they collided
Ha! Yeah, why is it that people can't leave such things in the past eh Miggins? It's destined forever as a merry-go-round which further cements people's prejudices doesn't it?
because it shows why RBR reacted about the way they did about it, nothing to do with favoritism, more to do with professionalism and team work, if there is favoritism then it's Webbers actions at Turkey that have caused it, he over agressively defended a position he'd lost and broke the rules to do it, which resulted in a crash and, in retrospect, could quite easily lost the WDC because of it, because Alonso would've ended up with more points if Webber had gone out too. So their problem with him is he would rather cost his team victory for his own personal glory.
Well, you see it is the fact that people want to keep discussing the old thing that cements the prejudice isn't it Miggs? For example, I completely disagree with your premise that Webber caused the accident you want to discuss. In my view (which is becoming ever more cemented by finding myself discussing it), it was entirely reasonable for Webber to want to hold the lead and defend his position, even though Vettel made a very rash misjudgement which resulted in them both going off, by steering to the right before he was clear of Webber. Keep discussing it as you wish, but I'll get my response out of the way without delay: I'm right and you're wrong! And as you can see, the more we discuss it the more convinced I become…
I personally feel that the Turkey incident was 50/50. Webber forced Vettel to put a wheel on the grass and left him no space (RBR want the drivers to give each other good space) so Webber was being overly defensive. Vettel made the mistake of cutting across too early - he should have known what Webber was like!! Anyway that is in the past - the main reason I think Horner told Webber to stay put was because just like Hamilton, Webber has a reputation for being overly defensive and causing unnneccessary incidents! I would put money on it that after Turkey '10 Horner and co. got a severe talking to from Marko and Mateschitz and so he was desperate not to have both drivers colliding again - wouldnt they look like a load of "idiots" if they had two teammate collisions in about 20 races!!!!!!!
Ha! But you see Colin, I disagree with the suggestion that it was anything even close to 50:50! Webber was fully entitled to defend his position robustly; yet in my view, he was very fair and actually left Vettel enough room to avoid the grass if he's had the sense to realise his manoeuvre was doomed. Webber made no sudden moves at all. Vettel did not need to steer right too soon and could simply have braked in a straight line until able to tuck in behind again, preserving the opportunity for many future attempts in what was clearly the quicker car, which would have more than likely resulted in a successful pass within a couple of laps in any case. P.S. Since you're new to the forum and therefore my humour, perhaps I should add that my "I'm right and Miggins is wrong" comment was a joke. (Even if entirely true)
If you watch the replays you will see that Webber actually forced Vettel to dip a wheel onto the grass. As RBR expect their drivers to give each other room this was Webber being too defensive and in my opinion went too far, in his desperation to hold on to place. Yes, Vettel should not have cut across but I think he expected Webber to do as the team wishes by giving him enough space, which Webber DID NOT do. Anyways, that is in the past, this thread was about Silverstone!!!!!
Coulthard speaks out... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/mo...s-on-Mark-Webber-now-lets-hear-the-abuse.html
Thanks for the link Silver. I'd not seen his article. Here is part of what DC said: This is essentially what I have been saying in this thread; although in general, I think DC falls into line with the team orders philosophy slightly too easily.
It's a lose-lose situation for Christian Horner. He's damned if he doesn't allow team orders and damned when he does. Webber had a go at Vettel, think it was on the Hangar straight on the last lap if I remember correctly, got a good exit out of the previous corner, looked to duck on Sebs's outside but Seb just cut across him. I think Christian just thought, "well Mark, you had a go, it didn't work so just backoff" and Mark wasn't that close by the chequered flag, certainly not as Hamilton and Massa. I voted no problem as I genuinely have no problem with what happened. I can understand Mark's frustration but how much more would he have been if he'd taken them both out and then risk Alonso and Hamilton coming back even more into the title race (considering that Alonso would have closen the gap even more if Vettel hadn't scored any points and Hamilton just made up points)? Live today, fight tomorrow.
A nice sound-bite Muffin but Webber's frustration is the result of feeling that every 'tomorrow' comes with yet more strapping to keep one hand tied behind his back.
Both Vettel and Webber are pretty bad overtakers, I think this is just Horner being a realist and not wanting his drivers taking each other out. The odds were probably in favour of a crash if Webber had tried it, you don't just need to look at Turkey where they hit each other, just look at any race from the last 2 seasons where they have tried a move on one of the top few drivers or had a move made on them by one. Either way teams orders leave RB smelling bad from this race, kudos to Mark for ignoring them. The problem RB have now is that if they don't resign Webber then who would take his place? They need an average driver like Webber to keep bring home points for the WCC, but they don't want a driver who may end up threatening or even beating Vettel on a regular basis as he is clearly their number one.
I still believe the problem with overtaking with Sebastian and Webber is because of the car they are driving and the engine they have. People might say Heidfeld and Petrov are better overtakers but it's more likely that they are up against midfield cars and are more likely to make mistakes. Go look at Webber trying to overtake Schumacher at Canada compared to Button doing it. Takes Webber what? 3-4 times on the ragged edge to nail Schumacher before the wall of champions, yet it takes Jenson one attempt from further behind and he just blasts past him cleanly and Red Bull have the better DRS. Same thing for spa last year, you would see a red bull against a force India overtake him on the kemmel straight for a second just to see the Mercedes engine power in front again when he got in the slipstream. The only real overtake I've been able to see vettel cleanly pull off this year and on equal footing was with Lewis at China on the long back straight using DRS, that's how much of an advantage it needs to overtake a Mercedes engine when driving with a Renault engine. I'm not saying Lewis, Jenson and Fernando have it easy, but having engines from Mercedes and Ferrari help pull it off somewhat.
I don't think either Red Bull driver has been involved in a collision this season. It's the McLarens and Ferraris who've been clattering into each other. The Red Bull car isn't suited to overtaking, it lacks top end speed due to its engine, dodgy Kers and aerodynamics, and its advantage in corners is nullified when following closely because the flexing front wing becomes unstable. Edit: Just remembered Webber was involved in a collision in Canada, but it was all Hamilton's fault.
