When it comes to you I don't need to try and appear more intelligent. As the teacher said "I can do many things but I can't put in what God left out".
Don't get me wrong, I trust Rodgers, if a player can't be bothered to join and Rodgers says fine then, that's good enough for me. All I'm saying is that we have to go out there and start looking at top players. You can't turn Spearing into Xavi, unfortunately. Football has changed, whoever can't see that is welcome to watch DVD's of our victories in the past. There's a club in Belgrade, a rival to Partizan, called Red Star Belgrade. They won the European Cup in 91', and since then have totally done **** all. They got the idea that they were god's gift to football, that players had to beg them for contracts, etc. They offered peanuts and **** contracts hoping that loyalty and love for the club would lure in the masses. Well it didn't. Now they have a 20m euro debt that they don't look like ever paying off, and fans who whine about the old days. They have "19th anniversary" celebrations, "21 years since we won" days and more. They felt it was necessary to force loyalty out of players and as such they were left with aging primadonnas who never got to that level again. Loyalty is something you can prioritise when you're back at the top. I don't want us to sign mercenaries like City but you can't just expect players to bend over when signing them. I'm certain Rodgers didn't plan on doing that with Sahin but I haven't seen an extra effort to get him either. If we do want him, we should show that extra effort. That's all.
D's, not interested in a bout of name calling so can I ask you a simple question. You've stated Dave/KD, pretty much anyone that isn't prepared to give individual players anything they want as old fashioned and weak mentally and that BR is the modern future (I agree about my hopes for BR by the way, liking KD doesn't exclude you from supporting BR!). At the same time you seem to have decided that Sahin is some kind of symbolic watershed in "how serious" we all are about winning. What if BR doesn't get Sahin & states the same reason for dropping pursuit as he did for Siggurdson? What if the actual modern manager isn't prepared to bow down to a player just to get him? Does that make BR an automatic failure with only one game gone? Does that make him weak mentally?
Exactly: there's a middle ground it's not all extremes! I used it as a joke but you could see why our manager might go the extra mile for certain players like a Messi & yes ego stroking is part & parcel now but you don't lose your self respect for just anyone because a few fans get a boner for a player(as can be seen for every fan that thinks he's god you'll have one that thinks he's a donkey ) or you've lost before you start. If players don't believe the team is more important that them as an individual they'll blackmail you everytime they have a bad hair day. Tevez anyone?
Football has not changed essentially since it was first codified. The way that professional football clubs operate has not changed only the level of money and the froth has changed. So don't delude yourself that this 'modern game' is any different from that which went before. If you truly believe it is then you'll be far happier playing a computer game. I believe that you are right when you say that you cannot change Spearing into Xavi. What you can do, if you are playing Spearing, is to maximise the talents that he has got by organising your other players so that you get the optimum from them. BTW, Liverpool are not the same as red Star and never have been.
You're right, lets get out the old leather balls and play hoofball, why not? Forget the fact that new tactics evolve, forget the fact that we aren't playing in a half-amateur league. Need a player? Let's pop down to the docks and scout out a good old fashioned local lad, right? So ignoring the new money clubs, PSG, Malaga, Anzi, City, Chelsea, ignoring the evolution of total football, the improvement of ball technology, the advent of goal line technology, and all that, football hasn't changed? The way clubs operate hasn't changed? Take a look at who our owners are! Americans! Using MONEYBALL, a system that was used in baseball! Player agents have evolved into advertisements, commercial directors, attorneys, spokespeople, agitators, etc. Tiki-taka football, worldwide scouting systems, global academies, market share, stock IPO's? You're saying these things have always been part of the game? It's a changing game, ****s sake Blatter wants to get rid of pens because it makes one team sad! Transfer dealings are no different. You can't get a team of 11 loyal, local, Mersey born and bred lads challenging for the title anymore. It's mentalities like yours that are the reason we have slipped behind, we're lagging behind everyone else. Are we moving in the right direction? Yes. Do we need to put in an extra effort to convince top players to sign? Yes. Also, Liverpool will never be the same as Red Star. Thankfully. Though the similarities are staggering.... Formerly dominant in a pre 90's league, culminating in good EC appearances, only to have fallen behind on hard times, debt, and poor football. Fans only have the past to hold on to, they haven't won a title in about 5 years, every season for them is a rebuilding season. They have a new coach who plays pass and move football, they sign young players who have decent potential and yet... they whine about not having luck and at the end of the season are left with nothing. Then their top players move, they're left with nothing and they start again. They sign players who have had decent seasons, they don't take risks and despite the loyalty they expect, the lack of success drives players elsewhere. We should make our own luck. Start emulating those at the top, and you'll eventually get there.
So. Let's go point by point. The strategy employed on the pitch and the strategy adopted by the club are two totally different things. Forget the fact that Liverpool FC have NEVER participated in a "part-amature" league. I defy you to name a star player that Liverpool got by popping down the docks - whilst at the same time nurturing local skill like Callaghan, Smith, Highway, God, Mcmanaman, Owen and Gerrard! Clubs themselves have not changed. Some have pursued success via an aggressive purchasing scheme others have attempted to do so by being more 'careful' with their cash. Does it really matter where the owners of a club come from? Wherever it is they still face the same dilemmas as owners/directors have always faced. If they do not manage the business of the club (both on and off the field) properly they go bust. Yes let's consider what happens when when that is not done properly. If you truly look at the financial situation of clubs across Europe then you will find that there are NO financially solvent clubs in Portugal, Spain (including Barca and Real), Italy (including both Milan clubs). Only 2 clubs in Holland are stable. Germany is a different matter as they took steps to ensure financial stability. As for the rest of the froth in this paragraph. What the hell has Total Football got to do with anything? It is merely another system just like 442, 433, 4231, etc. - they come and they go. Perhaps one day somebody will re-invent a version of the old W formation and claim that it is ground-breaking! As for tiki-taka football we had it drummed into us at school that if you have the ball, they can't score - and I've been a long time out of school! The rest of the activities that you mention are not NEW, they are however extensions of the business activities of clubs. However, I'll give you another challenge - name a team "11 loyal, local, Mersey born and bred lads" since the turn of the 20th Century? Then count just how many non-nationals there are in our squad today. The difference between us and Red Star is that we actually do have owners that are seeking to ensure that we develop in prudent fashion both on and off the field. I would far rather do that than be reliant upon a sheik or incur the debts of United - both will bite sooner or later.
In short Dave; the Chinese Successfully make something new everyday. It doesn't mean they invented it and it doesn't mean we should copy their methods of production.
On a lighter note. I got to see the match live today in a slightly surreal way. I was having a Skype video call with my son in Perth WA. When the match started, he watched it live on FoxTel. So he turned his laptop towards the screen so that I could see the match and we could chat whilst watching it - brilliant!!
Slightly less successfully but that's how I did it today! Jim Boardman posted supposed iPhone/iPad "unofficial" links to game (my laptop is elsewhere: no, not with the police) Then; it directed you to download the Veetle app which amazed me in its apple existence as I thought it went completely against what they wanted. Anyway: once downloaded: selected WBA vs LFC. Turned out to be a dude skyping or Tangoing his TV with his phone lol. He was steady for the most part. More than I would have been watching that shower lol....
Ok, I suppose you've won this debate. I'm convinced. You're right, though I do feel a more modern approach is necessary. I thought you were arguing that football in general hasn't really changed, which it has since we used to win things. I misunderstood, sorry! We can't just sit down and expect top class to come knocking - that much at least has changed. One thing you must agree on is that the club-player relationship has reversed. No longer do players aspire to one day play for a club, to impress them enough to earn a contract (thats what I was getting at with the local lads comment). Clubs used to be institutions that you one day strived to join - The onus is now on the club to go to the player and convince them to join. Lately we've been ignoring the second set of players and trying to attract the first (who are getting rarer and rarer).
I apologise too. I think we are both singing from the same hymn-sheet just using different tunes . You are right that we cannot just expect players to come knocking anymore. However, that's just not new. Souness said that when he became manager the biggest shock was that when he was a player other players pleaded to join us but now he faced his own players saying that they wanted away! My hope is that we are now enagaing upon a 'quiet revolution' in which all of the supporting elements of the club, (commercial, scouting, etc) are receiving their due care and attention.
