Where To From Here ?

[royalbarclayfan]

Firstly, let me just say that I´m not in the slightest bit surprised at how this season has panned out so far, nor at the position in which we find ourselves. I had no faith in Farke the day he was appointed, and I still have none. He is a man who's well out of his depth in my opinion, simply not good enough. Webber, I was prepared to give the benefit of the doubt, after the apparent success ( or was it really not mostly Wagner ?) he had at Huddersfield, especially as the role he took up here, although not new to him, was certainly going to be new to the Club and supporters. His history tends to suggest, that he doesn´t stay anywhere for very long, and for that reason I still have doubts about his long-term commitment, especially since this first season is showing distinctly negative tendencies.

I was quite prepared to wait and see if this new structure gave any grounds for optimism, and at the moment, I´m still waiting, and finding it hard to see , just how or why or where, it´s any better than the old model, a CEO in charge of Admin and a Manager in charge of football.

As everyone by now must know, I´m not particularly fussed where we play our football, but wherever it is, I want us to be competitive, which, with the owners we have (god bless´em), certainly in the last decade or so, has meant to me, that the Premier League is going to be a step too far, but at the moment, WE´RE NOT EVEN COMPETITIVE IN THE CHAMPIONSHIP !

Naturally for the rest of this season we´re stuck with it, unless someone has got the balls to do some sacking, or someone else feels the urge to resign, but god knows what we face after the summer, when parachuting will have stopped, and almost certainly all our ripest cherries will have been picked. The fact that everyone, including those at the top table, were avidly campaigning and emphasising before this season got under way, just how important promotion was going to be this year, looks ludicrous, from where I´m viewing things. It´s a clear chance gone missing, especially when the new structure gave us a chance to start afresh.

Agreed, we´ve cleared out a lot of the old wood and brought in a lot of young(ish) unknowns, with a view to the future, but that will only pay, with the right bloke(s) (my biggest concerns) in charge, and visible and tangible signs of a Club in progress - anything less and any talent will go straight back out the door again.

Certainly 2018 - 2019 has got to show a big improvement on 2017 - 2018 or else I´m tempted to say that the answer to the thread title, will likely be ´downwards´.

 

[Forgot_My_Lines]

Firstly, let me just say that I´m not in the slightest bit surprised at how this season has panned out so far, nor at the position in which we find ourselves. I had no faith in Farke the day he was appointed, and I still have none. He is a man who's well out of his depth in my opinion, simply not good enough. Webber, I was prepared to give the benefit of the doubt, after the apparent success ( or was it really not mostly Wagner ?) he had at Huddersfield, especially as the role he took up here, although not new to him, was certainly going to be new to the Club and supporters. His history tends to suggest, that he doesn´t stay anywhere for very long, and for that reason I still have doubts about his long-term commitment, especially since this first season is showing distinctly negative tendencies.

I was quite prepared to wait and see if this new structure gave any grounds for optimism, and at the moment, I´m still waiting, and finding it hard to see , just how or why or where, it´s any better than the old model, a CEO in charge of Admin and a Manager in charge of football.

As everyone by now must know, I´m not particularly fussed where we play our football, but wherever it is, I want us to be competitive, which, with the owners we have (god bless´em), certainly in the last decade or so, has meant to me, that the Premier League is going to be a step too far, but at the moment, WE´RE NOT EVEN COMPETITIVE IN THE CHAMPIONSHIP !

Naturally for the rest of this season we´re stuck with it, unless someone has got the balls to do some sacking, or someone else feels the urge to resign, but god knows what we face after the summer, when parachuting will have stopped, and almost certainly all our ripest cherries will have been picked. The fact that everyone, including those at the top table, were avidly campaigning and emphasising before this season got under way, just how important promotion was going to be this year, looks ludicrous, from where I´m viewing things. It´s a clear chance gone missing, especially when the new structure gave us a chance to start afresh.

Agreed, we´ve cleared out a lot of the old wood and brought in a lot of young(ish) unknowns, with a view to the future, but that will only pay, with the right bloke(s) (my biggest concerns) in charge, and visible and tangible signs of a Club in progress - anything less and any talent will go straight back out the door again.

Certainly 2018 - 2019 has got to show a big improvement on 2017 - 2018 or else I´m tempted to say that the answer to the thread title, will likely be ´downwards´.

Yea, it really is a mess. Looking pretty bleak at the moment. Not only will not be able to afford to bring in improved players, but who’s going to be eager to come here, who is a decent Championship standard.

The German cheap option I’d say has worked under 50%, and that good “under 50%” can’t compete without Maddison. DF, I think, still hasn’t figured much out in this league yet. I’m praying we just let these hot prospects have a run, they can’t be any worse. but he’s still not doing it yet with nothing to play for, and doubt he will to any real extent.

 

[JM Fan]

Yesterday's result was abysmal and on two 'player ratings' that I've seen, the only half decent score was Pinto and Reed just doesn't cut it as a DM. Despite Watkins speech in front of the press on Friday, he had a WOEFUL game yesterday and yes FML, I'm in complete agreement with you on that one!! I'm not to disheartened by Tettey not being able to agree terms for a new contract and that should leave the door open for the return of Godfrey. I can't remember ANY team having as many shots on goal as Hull did yesterday and Gunn had his busiest day of the season bar none. DF can complain all he likes about Hull's 2nd penalty, but had Hull not won, it would have been a travesty.
However, I still feel that DF will be our Head Coach next season - aided and abetted by SW - though I'll be surprised if we even threaten the playoffs.

The summer transfer window is going to SOOOO important and whilst JM makes noises about being happy at CR, I'm sure his agent has other ideas and we await the outcome of that tug of war. IMO, we have some worthwhile replacements in the Under 23s in Cantwell, Phillips and Fonkeu and PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE let's see Abrahams/Morris/Fonkeu in the first team squad and I'm not sure how long Basil has left on his contract.

As you say RBF, I'm not too fussed about getting back to the PL, as I can imagine we'd suffer some seriously heavy defeats IF we ever get back there, but I want to see us competing with any other team and scoring goals, whilst conceding as few a possible. - and N, I don't want t see a return of PL's philosophy of 'we don't care how many goals you score, as we'll score more!!!'

 

[Forgot_My_Lines]

Yesterday's result was abysmal and on two 'player ratings' that I've seen, the only half decent score was Pinto and Reed just doesn't cut it as a DM. Despite Watkins speech in front of the press on Friday, he had a WOEFUL game yesterday and yes FML, I'm in complete agreement with you on that one!! I'm not to disheartened by Tettey not being able to agree terms for a new contract and that should leave the door open for the return of Godfrey. I can't remember ANY team having as many shots on goal as Hull did yesterday and Gunn had his busiest day of the season bar none. DF can complain all he likes about Hull's 2nd penalty, but had Hull not won, it would have been a travesty.
However, I still feel that DF will be our Head Coach next season - aided and abetted by SW - though I'll be surprised if we even threaten the playoffs.

The summer transfer window is going to SOOOO important and whilst JM makes noises about being happy at CR, I'm sure his agent has other ideas and we await the outcome of that tug of war. IMO, we have some worthwhile replacements in the Under 23s in Cantwell, Phillips and Fonkeu and PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE let's see Abrahams/Morris/Fonkeu in the first team squad and I'm not sure how long Basil has left on his contract.

As you say RBF, I'm not too fussed about getting back to the PL, as I can imagine we'd suffer some seriously heavy defeats IF we ever get back there, but I want to see us competing with any other team and scoring goals, whilst conceding as few a possible. - and N, I don't want t see a return of PL's philosophy of 'we don't care how many goals you score, as we'll score more!!!'

Really hoped at this point Cantwell, Abrahams, Fonkeu et al would have had at least a regular sub role by now. At least seeing them on the pitch would add a bit of interest, excitement or something for the fans to cheer.

 

[JM Fan]

Really hoped at this point Cantwell, Abrahams, Fonkeu et al would have had at least a regular sub role by now. At least seeing them on the pitch would add a bit of interest, excitement or something for the fans to cheer.

Sadly FML, none of them appear to be on DF's 'radar'!!!

 

[Forgot_My_Lines]

Sadly FML, none of them appear to be on DF's 'radar'!!!

Cantwell was, for a couple of minutes, and I can see the sense in loaning him out. I really think he could have been a bench player coming on for the rest of this wasteland of a season. He'd be a much better playing prospect than Watkins, Vrancic, Stiepermann etc.

Is Max Aarons up to much at the moment. I really liked him every time I have seen him play. Proper Right Wing-Back potential I thought.

 

[JM Fan]

Cantwell was, for a couple of minutes, and I can see the sense in loaning him out. I really think he could have been a bench player coming on for the rest of this wasteland of a season. He'd be a much better playing prospect than Watkins, Vrancic, Stiepermann etc.

Is Max Aarons up to much at the moment. I really liked him every time I have seen him play. Proper Right Wing-Back potential I thought.

Yes FML, he's always looked good when playing for the Under 23s.. Their last home game of the season is 16th April at 2pm. Free entry

 

[Forgot_My_Lines]

Yes FML, he's always looked good when playing for the Under 23s.. Their last home game of the season is 16th April at 2pm. Free entry

Yea, seen a few. He was one that really stood out.

 

[Hairy Mary Quite Canary]

Really hoped at this point Cantwell, Abrahams, Fonkeu et al would have had at least a regular sub role by now. At least seeing them on the pitch would add a bit of interest, excitement or something for the fans to cheer.

I'm looking forward to seeing more of these guys and Godfrey too. Just hope more don't go the way of Middleton without us getting to see them in action proper.

 

[JM Fan]

I'm looking forward to seeing more of these guys and Godfrey too. Just hope more don't go the way of Middleton without us getting to see them in action proper.

SHOULD Godfrey NOT get his chance next season, I will cease to believe in the SW/DF policy of 'giving youff their chance.'
Godfrey is such a versatile player and when he was playing for the Under 23s last season, he played mostly at CB and he has also played at RB. According to an artilcle from his current teammate Morris, he was saying that Godfrey is now playing more of a CM role.

 

[carrowcanario]

It's a 2 year project and we haven't got to half time yet. Get a grip.

 

[royalbarclayfan]

It's a 2 year project and we haven't got to half time yet. Get a grip.

Sorry, but I´ve heard nothing about it being labelled as a two year project, I have heard, though, from Balls in particular, how important it was, that we returned to the PL this season, for financial reasons. However hard we´ve found it this year, we´ll find it doubly hard, next, almost certainly without our most talented players, and with less financial clout.

I´d say the overall outlook at this particular moment for a PL return, looks gloomy.

 

[carrowcanario]

Sorry, but I´ve heard nothing about it being labelled as a two year project, I have heard, though, from Balls in particular, how important it was, that we returned to the PL this season, for financial reasons. However hard we´ve found it this year, we´ll find it doubly hard, next, almost certainly without our most talented players, and with less financial clout.

Well they might not have come out and said it's "a 2 year project', but even a blind man can see that the club has had a massive overhall and are putting in the ground work now for a promotion push next season. I suppose you thought we were going to complete a major restructuring of our coaching setup & first team in a few weeks and get instant success or maybe you were happy plodding with the 'Norwich' way. Let's bring Martin back, he's a fantastic club man and a great bloke, doesn't matter that he's sh1t. What Balls knows about football you could write on a *** packet and still have room to spare, unfortunately I don't have a crystal ball to know what players will or won't be here next season. I do know that most hard working professional players appear to like working with DF, even if (like Jerome) they find the training set up hard or not for them. Maddison seems to have thrived under DF (he couldn't get a game under AN) and even if only DF gets him to the point at the end of the season when we sell him for mega bucks, then he's done a good job of maintaining our financial security for another year

There is still some way to go, but at least DF has sorted out our defence, something that previous managers (who weren't supposedly out of their depth) have failed to do. He also hasn't let sentiment get in the way of decision making and slayed a few sacred cows. Yes he hasn't got everything right, yes he's learning on the job, yes in some areas the necessary improvements have not happened and yes I don't agree with all his decisions, but he doesn't talk about getting the players to work harder in training he actually makes them work harder.

He may not get us to the PL or even get us competing for promotion, but the time to judge him and Webber and if necessary sack them is this time next season not now.

 

[General Melchett]

It's a 2 year project and we haven't got to half time yet. Get a grip.

The trouble is that for us to do well in the second half of said 2 year project, we need foundations to hit the ground running next season. Can you honestly say that looks remotely probable with the way things are going? Saturday for me was definitive evidence that Farke has solved little and that he is a country mile from putting out a balanced side.
So we play a more attacking line up away from home and by some miracle score 3 goals. But we are so open that we looked like the same callow naive side that got humped at Millwall or Villa.
Look at our goals and I would question our creativity too. For both penalties, our players were going away from goal and presented no immediate threat of scoring. They were naive and clumsy fouls by the Hull defenders/Keeper and probably a big part of the reason why they are where they are. Maddisons goal too, was also the result of poor defending and keeping, though he is good enough to mug many a defence and poor defending is often a perception of failings when it is in part down to attacking brilliance.
Even if you believe that Farke is setting foundations ready for a strong challenge next season, I can't help thinking they are built on sand. Like RBF I believe that given ourincreasingly poor financial reality, the best will leave. I think the best we could hope for would be a loan back on Maddison. If you believe that our budget will only allow for £8k per week wages, even if he was given double to help keep him, any PL club and several championship ones can easily double or more the higher figure. Maddison may talk well about being here and making the right choices, but earning 2, 3 or more x his current salary and playing in a side with ambition will surely see him leave.
The rest of the squad I'm actually more optimistic of keeping (Gunn excepted), if optimistic is the right word? I'm not sure why too many clubs would be interested in players that are seemingly lowerhalf championship standard? Zimmerman, Hanley, Trybull, Lietner are all players who have been bigged up, but if they are that good, why are we where we are? OK so I think its mainly the poor management and a tactical approach that that simply isn't fit for purpose. But either the tactics are wrong or the players aren't good enough for them.
For me given the general performance levels with or without Farke, we still have a very big rebuild in the summer and I grow less certain every week that Farke is the right man to oversee it. The trouble being that if we do look to replace him, Webber is almost certain to try the same trick again and that means another adjustment period, another season written off! On the plus side, Farkes replacement at BD II looks like he is doing well, they lie 3rd 2pts off top spot with 3 games in hand! And they are scoring at a heady 1.78 per match, a;though like us they seem to struggle more at home scoring and winning more on the road. Must be a German thing?

Bah!

 

[General Melchett]

Well they might not have come out and said it's "a 2 year project', but even a blind man can see that the club has had a massive overhall and are putting in the ground work now for a promotion push next season. I suppose you thought we were going to complete a major restructuring of our coaching setup & first team in a few weeks and get instant success or maybe you were happy plodding with the 'Norwich' way. Let's bring Martin back, he's a fantastic club man and a great bloke, doesn't matter that he's sh1t. What Balls knows about football you could write on a *** packet and still have room to spare, unfortunately I don't have a crystal ball to know what players will or won't be here next season. I do know that most hard working professional players appear to like working with DF, even if (like Jerome) they find the training set up hard or not for them. Maddison seems to have thrived under DF (he couldn't get a game under AN) and even if only DF gets him to the point at the end of the season when we sell him for mega bucks, then he's done a good job of maintaining our financial security for another year

There is still some way to go, but at least DF has sorted out our defence, something that previous managers (who weren't supposedly out of their depth) have failed to do. He also hasn't let sentiment get in the way of decision making and slayed a few sacred cows. Yes he hasn't got everything right, yes he's learning on the job, yes in some areas the necessary improvements have not happened and yes I don't agree with all his decisions, but he doesn't talk about getting the players to work harder in training he actually makes them work harder.

He may not get us to the PL or even get us competing for promotion, but the time to judge him and Webber and if necessary sack them is this time next season not now.

Sorry but I disagree, Farke had the full summer to work with the majority of his squad, a squad that had sufficient talent to at least be challenging for the playoffs. The first half of the season you could certainly understand a degree of rockiness, but as long as lessons were being learnt an the team and tactics evolving to become better, inspite of results I think generally patience would have continued.
We aren't stupid, it was a tough ask, made tougher by having picked a manager with no experience at a comparable level or in British football. Again I understand what Webber and Farke are trying to do. The trouble is, my perception that progress has ceased. Farke can make us solid, but only by virtue of us being completely neutered in attack. What little threat we carry is on the shoulders of Maddison and you might not believe it until you see it, but he'll be gone in the summer. How on earth does this squad or a 3rd tier German striker or two bring the goals next season that we are so sorely missing this term? What gives you confidence that Farke can coach a scoring team?
As for defensive solidarity or this defence you say he has sorted, has he really? The whole side attacks and defends as one (Or at least should do!) If we cannot attack, that is at least in part because the balance is so squewed in favour of defence. Look at saturday, we play less defensive (First time in a while without 3 CB away from home) and we are cut to ribbons, by a side who have struggled and are/were in the bottom 3rd! All he has done so far is select a series of unbalanced sides, that have got some results, mainly through being too defensive and relying on Maddison to pull the rabbit from the hat. We look to me so far away from balanced that it is difficult to envisage anything but a major rebuild again in the summer.

Bah!

 

[carrowcanario]

Well if you think one summer transfer window was going to sort out the total mess we were in then I can see why you're disappointed. If you really don't think that things have improved since the start of the season when Martin was at the heart of our defence and 1st choice CB then nothing i can say will change your mins. Before the Hull game no one on here thought we could score 3 in a game. Rome wasn't built in a day nor a season. We are in a better place now than we were when AN left. All championship promotion teams are based on a solid defence and for the first time in ages we have one.

 

[royalbarclayfan]

Well they might not have come out and said it's "a 2 year project', but even a blind man can see that the club has had a massive overhall and are putting in the ground work now for a promotion push next season. I suppose you thought we were going to complete a major restructuring of our coaching setup & first team in a few weeks and get instant success or maybe you were happy plodding with the 'Norwich' way. Let's bring Martin back, he's a fantastic club man and a great bloke, doesn't matter that he's sh1t. What Balls knows about football you could write on a *** packet and still have room to spare, unfortunately I don't have a crystal ball to know what players will or won't be here next season. I do know that most hard working professional players appear to like working with DF, even if (like Jerome) they find the training set up hard or not for them. Maddison seems to have thrived under DF (he couldn't get a game under AN) and even if only DF gets him to the point at the end of the season when we sell him for mega bucks, then he's done a good job of maintaining our financial security for another year

Like I said at the top of my thread, I´m not the slightest bit surprised at how this season has gone, so that ought to tell you that I didn´t expect instant success, in fact I expected far from it. From the day Farke was appointed, I felt sure we had made a mistake, and nothing so far, makes me think differently. As regards Balls knowing balls about football, I agree, I never said otherwise, but he damn well knows about finance, and he can see when a Club is in danger of getting into financial difficulty, as well as any. So when he made a point of stressing the urgency of achieving promotion, I for one, take notice. To use your own epithet, even a blind man can see that next season will be far tougher for us to make an impression, than this one has been, without the luxury of parachute payments. Hope your faith, blind or otherwise, in Farke and Webber, will be justified, I have absolutely none in Farke, and my jury´s still out on Webber.

 

[General Melchett]

Well if you think one summer transfer window was going to sort out the total mess we were in then I can see why you're disappointed. If you really don't think that things have improved since the start of the season when Martin was at the heart of our defence and 1st choice CB then nothing i can say will change your mins. Before the Hull game no one on here thought we could score 3 in a game. Rome wasn't built in a day nor a season. We are in a better place now than we were when AN left. All championship promotion teams are based on a solid defence and for the first time in ages we have one.

It is not just one window it is two and I didn't say it would be enough to sort everything, I mearly said that I think before the transfer window we had a squad if well managed could and should challenge for at least the playoffs. I stand by that, I actually think a better manager would also be getting more from this squad. I also believe that very few managers would have persisted with Martin and not reinforced the defense, given the obvious problem in 2016-17 was the goals against.

I will accept that a very modest improvement has been made defensively, I only call it modest because there is simply no balance. If I was a manager and wanted to keep clean sheets above entertainment or goals scored, I'd add defensive players and try to keep the ball. This is about all Farke has done. Is Maddison playing so well because of Farke? If you want to give him credit for that fine, he gets some, but he also must then take the blame for the horrible form of Nelson, Murphy, Watkins and Jerome, all of whom have played far better in the championship than they have this season.
It appears lost on you that in scoring 3, we lost all semblance of defensive resolve and conceded 4. Does that really represent progress to you? Seems very reminisant of our early season foibles. So is the defence sorted or not? When we defend well we can't score more than one. So I say again, Farke has achieved no balance to the side. So far this year we have scored more than 1 goal, 3 times. Only one resulted in a win, 2-1 vs Millwall (1st Jan). Wolves 2-2, and now hull 4-3. If you view these games when we have scored more than one as us being a little more adventruous and trying a little harder to attack, it appears that we also lose our defensive resolve. We need to show some balance between attck and defence before the end of the season for me to have anything other than a sense of forboding about next season before it even starts.
Rome wasn't as you say built in a day or a season, but foundations were layed, you think the defensive resolve represents those foundations, you maybe right, a few weeks ago I agreed. But the longer we look unable to score without opening the back door the less I think those foundations are on anything but sand.

You say "We are in a better place now than we were when AN left." the league table tells a different story as does the clubs bank balance, Neil frustrated but at least we got to see some goals, too many with the oppo's efforts, but 85 with +16 finishing 8th, sounds a bit better than what we are likely to finish with this season, no?
If you extrapolate our seasons form. we score 47 goals, with 52 conceded, -5, finish on 61 pts (70 last season).
Our wage bill is lower, thats good, that it? we're generally younger, that's OK, but no substitute for being better. This is the thing though, Farke, Irvine or A.N. Other manager would all have had to cut the wage bill. So Farke has done little special there. Only been overly defensive and still got a negative goal diference in the bottom half. It's not great work or looking that good for next season.
and you also say; "All championship promotion teams are based on a solid defence" True enough, but no one ever gets promoted if they can't score goals. Only balanced sides that can do both go up, no evidence of balance since day one.

Bah!

 

[General Melchett]

Like I said at the top of my thread, I´m not the slightest bit surprised at how this season has gone, so that ought to tell you that I didn´t expect instant success, in fact I expected far from it. From the day Farke was appointed, I felt sure we had made a mistake, and nothing so far, makes me think differently. As regards Balls knowing balls about football, I agree, I never said otherwise, but he damn well knows about finance, and he can see when a Club is in danger of getting into financial difficulty, as well as any. So when he made a point of stressing the urgency of achieving promotion, I for one, take notice. To use your own epithet, even a blind man can see that next season will be far tougher for us to make an impression, than this one has been, without the luxury of parachute payments. Hope your faith, blind or otherwise, in Farke and Webber, will be justified, I have absolutely none in Farke, and my jury´s still out on Webber.

I was a little more optimistic at the start of the season, because I thought our squad had enough talent that even with modest tweeking it could be competitive if well coached. I thought Gunn was a good addition, but with Klose, Tettey, Pritchard, Oliviera, Murphy and optimism for Maddison too we had the tools to score and build to be solid. Totally agree, the club and most of us realised that this season was our best remaining chance of a PL return before the Parachute payments run out. Webber and the board I know could not come out and say this season was a build for next but that doesn't make that true. They weren't writing this one off.
I'm not sure I have any remaining faith in Farke, hope? maybe a little, but I really don't see how he changes his ethos and gets the balance right. Webber as long as he persists with Farke has a question mark over him, but I still have faith in him in all other respects. I think now the money has been wasted, he is likely to be the best bet for u and I think generally he seems to be doing better than any predacessors on recruitment. But time will tell.

Bah!

 

[JM Fan]

I know we are suffering from injuries to Trybull and Leitner, both of whom would almost certainly be in our starting 11; so a MASSIVE lots IMO and shows how limited our squad is and I hope that Leitner will return in time for the glut of games over Easter.
My faith in DF is fading fast and I'd love to be proved wrong, but ....