Where is the Red Bull gaining 0.5 sec per lap on Qualy, and 0.3 (say) in the race?.
- Thread starter Bergkamp a Dutch master
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Is it the Red Bull Improving substantially or the other teams not getting the car set up probably. The Ferrari hasnt made a major change since Silverstone so it appears they may have given up
It's been simple aero advantage (eventually doubted) - then exhaust usage, then making tyres heat up, risky camber of tyres.....whats clear is that it takes corners/bends better. ie - we keep coming back to downforce.
I reckon it's their floor that was revealed at monaco and what they were bragging about before Spa saying it was going to give them another 3 tenths over a lap. That's where it's come from, they have perfected the air/cold blown diffuser in high speed.
The advantage Red-Bull have is called Sebastian Vettel, the other Redbull was behind the McLarens and Ferrari's, as usual.
No - I don't buy that. Vettel may well be in the top 4 drivers - who knows?
But to carve out the time diff almost every race - is down to the car in most respects.
But to carve out the time diff almost every race - is down to the car in most respects.
Vettel wasn't pressured at all during the race so we don't really know the true race pace of the car. The McLarens undid themselves with a slow start from Jensen and a slow restart from Lewis, because of this we didn't see them in a position to challenge Vettel and provide a true measuring stick of the Red Bulls pace. The quail pace came in the Ascari chicane, Brundells lap analysis showed Lewis was ahead at every point prior to the chicane on their quail laps but dropped time compared to Vettel at that point. It's all about downforce, the Red Bull generates buckets of it and they have an efficient DRS too. With so much down force and such a good DRS they can even afford to lose some by using DRS in the high speed corners of Monza where others can't. The RB7 is probably one of the best designed cars in recent years. I was rather hoping Di Resta may have got the number 2 seat when Webbers future was still undecided, it would have been nice to be able to compare Vettel with a driver who he has driven against in the same team before.
I heard whispers that the rear suspension is the reason for the success of the RB7. They seem to run a very different system to everybody else. I'm not a technical guru, so i'll try and find a link about it.
obviously they drink a bunch of Redbulls just prior to the start making the car lighter almost flying. 1,5 hours later when the race ends and they are being weighed the effect have worn off. Last year in Valencia we saw the result and effect of over consumption by Webber when trying to gain extra speed when he instead took off after hitting Kovalainen.
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flexi-wings: free gound effect downforce with no drag. They can put a really small rear wing on the car and keep the ground effect downforce
Red Bulls investment in material development which allowed them to develop structures which clearly flex under specific conditions yet pass all the FIAs tests was a stroke of genius. I expect there are plenty more parts on their car that flex yet pass scrutineering. Against the rules? Yes, but only the ones that stipulate no flexing, those that stipulate degrees of movement under specific load are clearly adhered to. That other teams are now trying to copy this and have stopped all their challenges is sign that this type of creative flexing is now deemed legal and acceptable, the FIA also appears to have left next years rules just as ambiguous regarding this area unlike their change of direction on blown diffusers which will be impossible under next years rules. The RB7 is just a very well designed car with good focus, which I imagine comes from allowing one excellent designed to just get on with his job. I get the feeling the the size and politics of other leading teams are sometimes their undoing. Too many cooks.
I dont think flexing parts is doing it for RBR's advantage since you can clearly see Ferrari's and McLaren's wings flexing almost similar to the RB7.
Cowboys idea sounds more like the reason for their advanatge, even the reports from the principal say they were going to bring a floor upgrade, giving them 0.3 a lap.
Cowboys idea sounds more like the reason for their advanatge, even the reports from the principal say they were going to bring a floor upgrade, giving them 0.3 a lap.
But if they can make their wings flex and still pass the various load tests, it's quite possible they have a floor similar in nature. Having said that, they have always gone in an opposite direction to other teams in terms of rear suspension, I think I recall this being the reason it took them so long to get a double diffuser on the car in 2009.
Sam Michael said on 5live before that a good front wing usually gives you about a tenth or two, not the 0.5 seconds that red bull have. Whatever is making them so quick, i don't think it involves the wing too much.
I think Bob makes a very good point here. However, it was clear that Red Bull's pace at Monza was widely expected to be below that of their main rivals - even by Red Bull themselves!
Back to Bergy's original question: there are an awful lot of people scratching their heads about just how the Red Bull is generating so much downforce in fast corners, and Monza's Parabolica was testament to this with both Red Bulls gaining roughly half a second on both McLarens through this one corner!
Oh didn't I give it? My apologies Bergy; I suppose I'd thought it obvious. My opinion is in line with Bobbinz, yourself and several others: Red Bull's speed - both in qualifying and races - is due to their speed in fast corners which relies so heavily on aerodynamic grip, easily offsetting their minor losses out of slow corners due to the superior mechanical grip of McLaren, Ferrari and particularly Mercedes. This also accounts for why the Red Bulls tend to be easier on their tyres.
Newey appears to have recognised the importance of tyres early on and left mechanical grip almost a secondary consideration to his all-important double priority: aerodynamic efficiency going hand-in-hand with huge levels of downforce. When one considers that this gives the tyres an easier time, it really is a no-brainer. But what baffles us all is just how Newey has managed it! It is surely a combination of many things coming together in an holistic package; but to use football language - at the end of the day, I just do not know !!
