Food for thought SFC.......Yes Saints seem to have a core of players that play each game. How ever in a two game week you often can see that in the second game the players tire just that much earlier. Have you noticed NA often takes Ricky off now? Trouble is it is immediately you do that, you miss his type of play. Same when you take Chaplow off. You do not have similar players to replace them, and that in my book is Saints achillies heel. You have to look at it in another way as well. How are we going to give the likes of Doble and co a chance unless you bring them into the game to blood them. Waiting for injuries or suspensions is not the ideal way to play these players. So whether you call that rotation or good old fashioned resting I do not know.....
With our recent performances it would be difficult for NA to bring a player like Doble on. I would much prefer seeing these youngsters given an airing when the games have been won.At least if he does well at Stockport Ryan might be able to show us what he can do with his confidence still high. Nothing beats actually playing. Chaplow has been a real star since arriving and I agree we have nobody of a similar impact. For me the youngsters should be given a run out as subs to begin with, in much the same way as Alex started as an impact player for us. There are times when I would tell a player to go out in the first half to run the hardest he ever has. Now we have the likes of N'Guessan and Forte who will presumably be impact players there is also the fact that they could be blocking any progress of our own home grown talent. With so many games due to be played now in a short recovery time it is possible that some of our players could be rested but I would still like changes to be kept to a minimum where possible. As for Ricky, I believe he should be told to do his movement in the centre of the pitch. It is less tiring for him maybe, but at the same time most goals come with someone finishing from within a certain area of the attacking end and he might just be more often on the end of a good cross or pass.
A lot of the time Ricky is man marked....usually by one of the taller men from the opposition. When this happens Ricky makes him run all over the place. Most often to create space for one of the others. However IMO because of Ricky's form in the early season and his lack of goals. Latterly he has not been so closely marked. The result he is scoring for fun again. Now if they try and mark him out of the game again I just hope that Barney or Guly step up to the plate. That would mean at least 4 potential match winners coming at you....5 if you count chappers. That is a worrying concept in any man's team in my book.
Having just read your post I am quite surprised by your comments SFC Forever. I can only assume this is based on personal feelings and not player stats. I have looked at Davis cv and I am not sure how playing 175 games for Saints doesn't read very well. Plus having played for Sunderland Ipswich & Wimbledon and being offered a higher prem move which he turned down to stay at Saints. Kelvin is a rock but a human rock and has made a few mistakes but as a human this happens to players. I have also looked at Jaidi & Seaborne's CV. As you mentioned that Martin should be playing in front of them along side Fonte with Jaidi as sub and Seaborne not even making the bench. Jaidi having played for Bolton and Birmingham (premiership standard) and also played several times for his country. Plus an excellent experienced defender who is outstanding in the air and in the tackle. Only his age is a question with quick succession games. Seaborne has played regular league football and at the age of 20 was captain of EXeter City and I believe celebrated his 100th league game in the program last year. He is only 23 and has captained Exeter City to victory at Wembley, raising the trophy for his team. That was his 2nd time at Wembley. Youngest captain (20) ever to lead a team to victory at the new Wembley. Been involved in 2 consecutive promotions. Not over sure of Aaron Martins playing background only that he is 2 yrs younger than Seaborne and played for Eastleigh & Salisbury. Signed by Pardew & has played 2 games last year & 5 this year. When playing with Fonte this year they have lost 3 games & won 1. Being 21 you would hope to be at least featuring on the bench. I agree with you that Adkins should play his strongest team. Which I am sure he does. He see's them daily & knows them personally as a squad. I cannot see he does squad rotation just for the sake of it, but carefully looks at the opposition and decides who has the best ability & experience to deal with them. Would be interested to know why you think Aaron should be put in a team (ahead of Jaidi & Seaborne) which he hasn't featured in all season & when he did he lost 3 won 1 playing with Fonte. I am a great believer in bringing on the youth but at the right time and not in the last part of a season, in an auto/ promotion pushing squad. This should be done like Pardew did last season & played Martin for the last game when the result didn't affect our league place. Is Martin a youth player at 21? I look at the likes of Alex Chambo & Goburn as youth players.
Players like Lallana and Chamberlain started as "impact" players in a way.......coming on for the last 15 minutes or so until they were blooded. They obviously took there chances well and eventually became regulars. (Chamberlain in particular, which of course upset Puncheon) That is the only way you can bring younger players on. As they appear to be doing with Goberne. Doble has just been loaned out as there is little chance of his inclusion in the foreseeable future. Usually you cannot blood more than one or two players from the youth set up during a season. Unless you get someone extra, extra special, that comes on and hits it off straight away. (As Alan Shearer did all those years ago) Aaron Martin indeed does not have many league games at higher than conference level. Which is a shame but the lad does have potential, while I agree he does not have the experience of Seaborne. To be fair to the lad he did not let himself or the team down with his performances when he was playing. I too was surprised by those putting him in front of Seaborne and Jaidi. I believe because of his birthday he can play in the under 21 teams.
Basically you look at your star players, i.e. Lambo, Lallana, Fonte and build a team around them, playing certain individuals that are suited to the conditions and quality of the opposition, the problem is when you get an injury or suspension you need a different strategy to accomodate whatever alternatives that are available. This League is the tightest that it has ever been and previous statistics can be discarded as they do not apply, obviously Brighton are well ahead and don't look like being caught unless they have a total meltdown, so we have to scrap for that precious second promotion place, it isn't going to be easy and we can take nothing for granted.
Hippysaint I fully understand what you have said re the experienced players. Davis has had a lot of games but he has struggled at the highest level and Sunderland let him go without any great fuss. It could also be said that a lot of fans hounded him out. He was relegated with Sunderland from the Premier League. He was also relegated with Wimbledon. He was then relegated with us. He has been reliable and because of the position we were in when he stayed we may have had rose tinted glasses. He has never commanded his box and never will. IMO of course. Martin I rate higher than Seaborne as do a lot of other fans. Jaidi is getting older and has marvellous knowledge of how to defend. Great in the air but he is slowing and is apparently finding it hard to play too many games frequently. Martin has only played a mere seven games but apart from inexperience has looked the part. Both Fonte and Jaidi have commented on his ability and said that he listens and asks for advise. Using his record with Fonte alongside is slightly misleading in my book. One of the defeats was against Bolton. We were on a run where we were struggling to score and then you can add in the loss of Lallana for two of those games and we all know what that means to the team. He also missed one game in his early season run where we had our worst home performance of the season against Swindon. Another fact which could be prudent in this debate is the fact that we have (i think) lost 8 and drawn 3 games when failing to score. We can all have our own opinion and mine says I would love to see Martin playing. Whether it is to be a sub for Jaidi on a regular basis until he is proven doesn't matter. Seaborne was captain of a very young Exeter side but is now at a bigger club where more is expected of him and I do not believe he is delivering. The majority of his games came in the non league before reaching this division. I look at him and he instils no confidence in me and nor does Kelvin. Everybody harps on about our brilliant youth academy and how we have players waiting to come through but if they don't get the chance they will disappear. The likes Ryan Tafazolli is having fun at Salisbury and is doing quite well. Ryan Doble is another that has had to go out on loan to gain experience. How many internationals are there that have never played for their clubs first team? Finally I agree that it is getting to a critical stage of the season now to be blooding players but what happens if Fonte is injured? Jaidi and Seaborne does not sound like a partnership made in heaven.
Interesting debate, all up and coming players need to be introduced and blooded. What suggestions do you have of doing that? Are you suggesting the players should be loaned out to other clubs to get their blooding? Lets face it if players like Martin and co are going to be future club players they will have to be brought on and nurtured. So when and how would you do it??
I'd say blood the youngsters during cup campaigns, well next season anyway, and try to include one on the bench during league games. Loaning out youngsters such as Doble has to make sense, as he'd struggle to break into the first team yet, and will look a far better prospest if he can get a good run of games this season. I think he'll begin to make his presence felt next season. As far as squad rotation goes, it's mostly the back four that seem to change most at Saints, with midfield changes generally injury driven. I think we need a big squad in this league due to the sheer number of games, and rotation is the only way that half of them would ever get a game if we played a 'best 11.' We have good cover for every position, but I don't think we'd have the team spirit and competition for places if we didn't rotate. Where we play changes requirements too, as there is a vast differnce in pitch quality at this level, hence Jaidi for strength and aerial abilty on poor pitches, and Seaborne with his extra pace when we have the room to play. As Olddellboy says, 'horses for courses' It's a tricky system to manage though, so I guess we can judge by seasons end if it worked or not.
For me Martin has done well enough when playing to deserve a shot. Whether he is training hard enough for Nigel we won't know but against Blackpool he did well. As I said earlier I would love to see players coming through have a game when we are winning but sometimes that isn't always possible. I think most of our fans think Seaborne won't cut it and for me that leaves Martin as first choice back-up to Fonte and Jaidi. Chamberlain has done so well that sometimes we forget that he is really still a novice. The only time to loan out a player for me is when he is good enough for the squad but needs the experience. Ryan Doble I would have prefered to see coming on in some of the games where we are comfortably ahead. Nothing better for confidence than being part of a winning team. It is hard for a player so young if he is loaned out and then played out of position or in a system that doesn't suit.
Yes got to agree with you that at the Blackpool game both Martin & Seaborne did well and it was a great result for them. I notice these 2 have only played that game together. However on playing performances, results & experience Jaidi & Seaborne stands out way ahead of Martin. I think he is 4th choice for a reason. If he was good enough & Adkins wanted him to play ahead of the others he would be starting every week. Or even on the bench at the expense of the others. He did get a chance at the beginning of the season & partnered Fonte in 4 games to 1 Win & 3 Losses. This may of been his chance to claim that shirt & make his stance in the squad. Football is a hard cruel game & you have to grab your chance if you get it as you might not get another one again. Chambo did this & is still doing so. He took his chance & excelled & only 17. I think lack of experience at his age is also against Martin, as he has only featured in 7 games for the last season & this one. Its a shame as he could be a good player but at 21 you are becoming older with lack of first team experience. At this age you should be a regular at least on the bench. Why isn't he ? It seems Adkins prefers the other 2 & his selection & the results prove this. I think its a shame that you quote " I think most of our fans think Seaborne won't cut it " . I am not sure where you get this from but the guys we sit with all agree Jaidi & Seaborne are way ahead of Martin. We always discuss who will play Jaidi or Seaborne and will Adkins go for Jaidi's experience & heading ability or Seaborne's Younger legs & ability to pass the ball. Seaborne has a great left foot & looks good on the ball. We are always surprised when someone suggests Martin is better than Jaidi & Seaborne just because they think he looks good & should play ahead of them. Thank goodness Adkins see's it differently as do the facts & results show. Having looked at the results table this year here are a few facts: Fonte/Martin Won 1 Lost 3 Drew 0 Fonte/Seaborne Won 7 Lost 2 Drew 3 Fonte/Jaidi Won 7 Lost 4 Drew 3 Jaidi/ Seaborne Won 2 Lost 1 Drew 1 Seaborne/Martin Won 1 Lost 0 Drew 0 Seaborne (on facts/results) Won 10 Lost 3 Drew 4 Jaidi Won 9 Lost 5 Drew 4 Martin Won 1 Lost 3 Drew 0 This makes interesting reading as Seaborne only Lost 3 games out of 17 Jaidi Lost 5 out of 18 Martin Lost 3 out of 4. I think this proves why Adkins is choosing the players he is & using the squad rotation to play to their strengths. I think Martin would be a prime candidate to be put out on loan again. At 21 does he really only want to be playing at rezzie level. He is getting quite old to be playing with the youth boys & must be dying to play mens football. I think he needs this experience to get him the games at mens football level he must be looking for. It looks like his contract runs out at the end of the season & Mr Cortese will be asking at his age how is he fairing in the first team squad & how much has he improved this year? Plus we have the likes of Ryan Tafazolli out on loan & coming through the youth system as the next young CB. It must be hard for Martin & I feel for any players coming up through the ranks & trying to impress but have only limited chances to do so.Thank goodness we have such an excellent Academy set up & staff who bring these youngsters on and play them on a weekly basis in fully competitive games to gain that all important match experience allowing them to break into the first team squad. Sorry to be a bore but love looking at player trivia and match results and statistics. I am always surprised what I find & its great to share it with other Saints fan rather than the same old crowd I travel to footie with most weekends.
Nice to see some statistics brought into the debate. Trouble is with statistics is that you can make them suite your particular argument. Just looking at the stats isn't telling the whole story. IE can you say that by playing Martin he was directly responsible for those loses? (won 1 lost 3 draw 0) The answer for me is no. One of them was against Bolton. I think the other centre backs do edge it through experience, nothing more. Jaidi's contract is up next summer so Martin will be good cover for him and I would expect him to start more games next year.
Thanks for that Beddytare. Couldn't sleep last night so put my time to good use.. I do like to look at players history's and stats. Makes me quite a boring person really. I would like to make it clear I was no way saying Martin was directly responsible for the 3 losses but was part of the teams defence & stats. I hope the lad does get more of a look in but it is so hard with the teams experience & new signings waiting to get a chance. Time will only tell.
Is it me or have we gone off the boil....poor performance against Carlisle....poor performance last night, you can't blame both on bad pitches or the like! Getting nervous regarding the way we are playing as we are finding it difficult to break teams down which in the main we didn't find last season.
oh dear ...we made it slighty more harder for Saturday ... Yet again when Cherries slip up we can never take advantage!!!
Never mind ....will be there just the same as usual on Saturday.....We owe Swindon.... out and at em boys!
To get back to the original question, I am not a fan of the rotation system. Play our strongest fit side each time and let other teams adapt to us. Why should we have to allow for their strengths. Does this not play into their hands and mean we are trying to nullify rather than dictate the game. Few sides in this division or the one above can match us on a good day. Do Barcelona adapt to meet the strengths of the team they are playing or do they simply play the Barca way. We should aspire to their philosophy. Let our opponents woory about having to play Southampton and not the other way round
To be honest think that is the way NA thinks Bristolsaint.........A lot of teams play hoof ball in this league.........Therefore bypassing the midfield. This is where Jaidi comes in to his own his heading ability. Trouble is we play very high up the pitch and if they have hoofed it over the top. It only takes a nippy forward to put us under pressure. In those circumstances Jaidi is no good, we rely heavily on Fonte to cover him. I understand what you say about the rotation system, but how would you blood the youngsters into the 1st team then? Remember the season is very long on average for any Saints player around 55/58 games a season with cup games and the like. Traditionally you can obviously try the youngsters out then in the cup. On average though is that enough games for them in a season. Further more would we be able to do that especially if we do go up into the championship?
To be fair none of us sees what Nigel sees as a manager when watching the players in training and even on the pitch. I do have one question HippySaint[/]. Are your stats for Martin only the league games, because I thought he has won2 lost 3. Not a lot of difference but it does make his stats look better. 25% as against 40%. The one thing I may not have explained well is the thought that he could always come in as a sub for either. my circle of friends is obviously different to yours as hardly any of us rate DS and shudder when he is named as starting. I do like the idea of letting Martin go out on loan to another club. Could work for him but it is finding a club that would use him. Looking at the stats by themselves it does look good for Seaborne I must admit.
Am a bit surprised by your lack of faith in Seaborne, my biggest worry with him is his ability to not bring someone down in the box!!!!! None of our current centre backs cannot say they haven't made mistakes which has cost us goals. Of the centre backs that have made mistakes that have cost us games, here I can only speak for home matches, is Jaidi and Fonte. I don't remember Martin or Seaborne ever making that kind of mistake. The stats with seaborne on the field are quite good is my understanding. Just a thought.......
