Spot on Goldie. Patriotism should be about integrity assured and full national support in every way - not self-preservation and pretence.
I just find all your arguments on this highly political Brix. Some points you make are valid, but I just feel they are for a different day. Rememberance is about honouring the dead. I wear the poppy to do just that...not to agree with the way they and the present armed forces were and are treated by their leaders!
It's a very emotive subject Col, I lost a great schoolmate shot in Northern Ireland and know other Falkland's veterans that have really had their lives ruined by their experiences. However, I agree with you that today isn't the day for anything other than honouring the memory of those no longer with us.
Not political Col, natural. Of course it's about honouring the dead (and their families). Standard at the graveside following any tragedy are the infernal questions invariably begged by the bereaved. Before the funeral it's all about what and who - and thereafter about how and why. Never enough to simply acknowledge what's happened. We have a duty to learn from it and make certain it never happens again.
What exactly does the Poppy stand for? Is it all British War dead in all Wars? All War dead in all wars? All British War dead post 1914? All Allied War dead in WW1+WW2? I never knew and still don't know!!
The symbol is based on the poppies that grew in the Flanders region of France, an area of particularly brutal battle in World War 1, and subsequently the site of a famous military cemetery; it was adopted by the British and Canadian Legions, as a memorial symbol of the veterans of World War 1. In the US., with the advocacy of Moina Michael, the American Legion and the Veterans of Foreign Wars adopted the symbol and expanded the use of it, to include fund raising efforts for disabled veterans. Under this program, a small, red paper poppy, to be displayed on shirt or blouse, was given in thanks, to each contributor. The symbolic red poppy also has a similar history in Australia, New Zealand, and France. I see it as a tribute to all the British war dead, including over-seas Nationals who fought for Britain, since the 1st World War. Although I tend to think of all the British and Allied war deaths throughout history.
Cheers for the info boys. I knew that it came from Flanders etc but the actual significance of it had me a bit confused (not hard I know!). I can see where perhaps it might create some problems with regards to recent Wars; Iraq, Afghanistan etc. with British people who were opposed to such conflicts. I was listening to Talksport Friday night and a lot of callers who had family members killed in the World Wars expressed the opinion that with regret the Poppy was being hi-jacked by modern day War-Mongers to further their own dodgy aims. Those self same politicians that would never send their own children to the battlefield but always somebody else's. Its unfortunate that its symbolism is being lost to some. Our new President's first official engagement today was to attend a remembrance service and lay a wreath to the memory of the dead. No better wee fella for it either!
A lot of brave Irish soldiers died on the side of the allies in WW1 Swords. I have as much respect for them as all the other fallen heroes. I really dislike the way the poppy gets hijacked by different agendas.
It's good to see the level of interest and passion this subject stirs up. I am with Col on this - while recognising the politics, the poppy and the day itself are for me about personal remembrance and respect for soldiers past and present, though I must admit my respect for the conscripted men of the World Wars, Korea and the other conflicts of the 50s is especially strong, probably because my Dad was in Korea, and my grandfather was in WW1 ( his own machine gun blew up in his face, 2 years of recovery - but probably lucky). The impact of reflecting on this sacrifice was strongly brought home to me yesterday. I was about to induce a self inflicted cardiac event in response to yet another piece of stupidity from my son, when we had the 2 minutes silence. Resultant sense of perspective made the bollocking ( still administered) much milder and measured, and probably more effective for it. In addition to the poppy this year I bought one of those wrist bands - have decided to keep it on as a personal reminder that whatever crap is going on, people have given their lives for me to have the freedom to worry and angst about the frankly insignificant.
Thank you Swords, I really appreciate that. Now, if only I could find something other than the R's to write about.....
My grandfather fought in the second world war, and against the odds for his role (he was a rear-gunner in bombers - initially Stirling III's, then Lancasters) he survived the war, and lived for another 41 years. He rarely spoke of the friends he had lost, or the things he had seen and had thankfully lived through, but there was a pride in his bearing that I didn't see in other men that I grew up around, and rarely see these days. His cousin, my great Uncle, died in France a few weeks after D-Day, and having learned about him from my grandmother, he was one of a number of potentially wonderful role models that I missed out on knowing. Yesterday, I met with two friends, one ex-serviceman and one currently serving, who have both experience in serving in the Middle East. The current soldier was on a week's leave before returning this week to Kabul as part of the NATO-attached British Army detatchment there. Both have experienced things that I hope and pray that myself or my kids never get to see. Another friend has done three tours in Afghanistan and Iraq as a Psychiatric Trauma Nurse, and he has told me that dealing with the aftermath of front-line combat leaves him amazed that men can go through such situations, and still function after leaving the combat zone. I was listening to a song written by a good mate, who has worked with ex-servicemen and has spent some time with them over in Belgium, visiting the cemetary at Sanctuary Wood, just outside Ypres. I'm looking to get the song properly cut and uploaded to Youtube, and will post it when I do, but here's a snippet of the lyrics, for contemplation.... "And so onto the fields, the five brothers went, Aware of the flags of the shells left unspent, Along with the aged daughters and sons, Shedding tears for the loved ones they wished they had known. And now here in this woodland, both stunning and grim, All the schoolchildren marvel at timber and tin, All twisted together, as though in a dance, How I pity those lost souls, they had not a chance, And I hear their voices whisper, in the places they once stood Where the trees are turned to splinter, at Sanctuary Wood. Many lives, many stories lay buried around, Some are lost forever, and some will be found, And although we would listen, their ghosts only tell, Raise a glass, shed a tear, and remember them well. For though many are willing to comprehend, But only those who've been through it will ever understand Not for King, or for Country, or for medals of tin, Each man died for the man standing next to him." Lyrics reproduced are (C) Lee Davids
