VVD and?

[luvgonzo]

I've been vocal in that I rate Matip and think he should start when fit with VVD, some say Lovren. Some say neither and we need to buy.

Here are some stats.

Van Dijk has been partnered by Matip on six occasions, resulting in four wins, two defeats and six goals conceded.

With Lovren the numbers are two wins, one draw and a defeat, with four goals conceded.

However, it's worth noting Lovren was the preferred option for the tougher encounters against Tottenham Hotspur and Manchester United against whom those four goals were conceded.

Overall this season, Liverpool have lost only two of the 29 games in which Lovren has featured, compared to four in 30 with Matip involved.

Again, little to choose between the pair.

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The overall Premier League statistics paint a similar picture. In terms of pass completion, Matip and Van Dijk can boast 89% to Lovren's 88%.

The average number of interceptions – Matip 1.42, Lovren 1.57 – and blocks – Matip 0.62, Lovren 0.52 – are also too close to call.

But while Lovren is ahead of Matip in terms of clearances (5.3 to 4.08) and interceptions (1.57 to 1.42) the roles are reversed when it comes to average tackles won per game (0.96 for Matip to 0.65 for Lovren) and aerial duels won (76.06% to 65.38%).

Indeed, Matip's figures for the final two metrics surpass those of even Van Dijk.

Klopp, as with several other positions, may decide it is a matter of horses for courses, picking the right man for that particular opponent.

In terms of a regular long-term centre-back partner for Van Dijk, however, Liverpool are still seeking a definitive answer. The next few weeks could help provide one.

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/virgil-van-dijk-one-liverpool-14463011

 

[organic red]

I can see us buying a CB this summer, and with Gomez taking one of the four spots it will mean discarding at least one of our current CB's.
Klavan was always going to be short term and to be fair he hasn't done a lot wrong. But others are ahead of him in the pecking order.
Out of the remainder, its really between Matip and Lovren. I think we may sell Lovren, a mistake is never that far away and Klopp must see
this.
So, next season might be VvD...Matip...new signing....Gomez

 

[FedLadSonOfAnfield]

They're all a bit crap as options really

But ship Klavan and Lovren out

Matip isn't much better of an option really, so buy A.N. Other to compete with him and Gomez

Been v disappointed with Matip actually, I don't think he's all that good really

 

[InBiscanWeTrust]

Been disappointed by Matip. He’s not been bad, just expected a bit more, especially going forward from corners.

His passung forward is one thing where has been a real plus. He reminds me of Sakho in that way he passes the bell between the lines with pace, something Lovren doesn’t do. Been good few times where he’s helped set up a goal with that initial pass.

Think long term both could be improved but I’d stick with a Matip for time being.

 

[Zanjinho]

I don't think Matip is good enough. I think he was overhyped at a result of others around him being so poor or hit & miss.

Lovren is frustrating; good enough one week but terrible another. Consistency is key though so ultimately, not good enough.

Buy VVD a partner is the only option.


This covers more than just CB but...

https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/5-crucial-things-jurgen-klopp-will-improve-liverpool-summer

 

[BobbyD]

not sure why everyones hitting matip bad. Yea he's not showing his form that he had when he first joined (or everyone was crap so he looked better) but for someone you bagged on a FREE, he's a pretty solid player.

think you need a CB with a bit more pace and aggression to implement Klopps pressing game, that or a great reader of the game to sweep up so VVD can press.

 

[Zanjinho]

not sure why everyones hitting matip bad. Yea he's not showing his form that he had when he first joined (or everyone was crap so he looked better) but for someone you bagged on a FREE, he's a pretty solid player.

think you need a CB with a bit more pace and aggression to implement Klopps pressing game, that or a great reader of the game to sweep up so VVD can press.

Always said "for a free" isn't justification. The fee they arrived for its irrelevant, it's about their ability and whether they're good enough or not.

Even when Matip looked good (because others were ****ter) I said he wasn't good enough for where we wanted to be.

 

[BobbyD]

Always said "for a free" isn't justification. The fee they arrived for its irrelevant, it's about their ability and whether they're good enough or not.

Even when Matip looked good (because others were ****ter) I said he wasn't good enough for where we wanted to be.

which aspect of him do you think he's not good enough? The occasional brainfart? The lack of being a leader? his lack of usain bolt like pace?

he's a fairly solid tall defender whos not a leader but will do a decent job and isn't exactly mistake ridden and he pretty good technically on the ball (arguably from what i've seen a better passes than VVD). He's not going to be your superstar defender but at the same time he's not a liability and centre backs are always part of a defensive pairing.

Whilst i don't think anyone is going to be paying millions for him and making him a key signing, i think that clubs wouldn't be looking to sell him off either if he was part of their club as he's good enough for top 4.

 

[luvgonzo]

which aspect of him do you think he's not good enough? The occasional brainfart? The lack of being a leader? his lack of usain bolt like pace?

he's a fairly solid tall defender whos not a leader but will do a decent job and isn't exactly mistake ridden and he pretty good technically on the ball (arguably from what i've seen a better passes than VVD). He's not going to be your superstar defender but at the same time he's not a liability and centre backs are always part of a defensive pairing.

Whilst i don't think anyone is going to be paying millions for him and making him a key signing, i think that clubs wouldn't be looking to sell him off either if he was part of their club as he's good enough for top 4.

He's got good ability on the ball and reads the game well, I rate him more than most. He does make the odd mistake but imo that was highlighted more when the whole defence was playing badly. He's a good ball playing CB. Picks up the odd knock though so we do need someone.

 

[Zanjinho]

which aspect of him do you think he's not good enough? The occasional brainfart? The lack of being a leader? his lack of usain bolt like pace?

he's a fairly solid tall defender whos not a leader but will do a decent job and isn't exactly mistake ridden and he pretty good technically on the ball (arguably from what i've seen a better passes than VVD). He's not going to be your superstar defender but at the same time he's not a liability and centre backs are always part of a defensive pairing.

Whilst i don't think anyone is going to be paying millions for him and making him a key signing, i think that clubs wouldn't be looking to sell him off either if he was part of their club as he's good enough for top 4.

You've just told me you don't watch him much. He makes as many mistakes as Lovren, Dejan's are just higher profile.

He's slow in both pace and reaction, doesn't read the game and considering his height, poor in the air too.

Both he and Lovren are decent squad options but we should be aiming for better as first choice.

 

[Zanjinho]

He's got good ability on the ball and reads the game well, I rate him more than most. He does make the odd mistake but imo that was highlighted more when the whole defence was playing badly. He's a good ball playing CB. Picks up the odd knock though so we do need someone.

I genuinely don't think there's much between Matip and Lovren.

I'd prefer Matip because of his ability on the ball.

I think Klopp prefers Lovren.

 

[BobbyD]

You've just told me you don't watch him much. He makes as many mistakes as Lovren, Dejan's are just higher profile.

He's slow in both pace and reaction, doesn't read the game and considering his height, poor in the air too.

Both he and Lovren are decent squad options but we should be aiming for better as first choice.

not sure how much you watch of him but i watch him regularly enough.

With respect to mistakes, a high profile mistake is one that means he concedes a goal. He doesn't have many of those (if any). As for positional ones, name me a defender who doesn't make any of those and i'm sure you won't find one.

He's not super dominant in the air (especially how tall he is) but then again he isn't dominated on it. As for his pace, he's not quick but he isn't a slouch.

If you compare him to the defenders in United, City, Spurs, Chelsea and Arsenal you could only really argue Dave (and only as a recovery defender as he's weak in the air), Kompany, Alderweireld, Vertonghen are definitely better than Matip. Everyone else is around his level depending on how they feel on the day.

That's what i mean by standout defender or not. No he isn't a superstar but he's by far a weak link which is your midfield and tactics that expose your defence (not necessarily a bad thing as you get plenty of goals)

As for Lovren, the reason he gets slated is because he has loads of mistakes and will give you a 9/10 game or a 3/10 game and he is super inconsistent (as well as underwhelming you when you boys thought he'd be a superstar). Matip is far more consistent than him

 

[saintanton]

not sure how much you watch of him but i watch him regularly enough.

With respect to mistakes, a high profile mistake is one that means he concedes a goal. He doesn't have many of those (if any). As for positional ones, name me a defender who doesn't make any of those and i'm sure you won't find one.

He's not super dominant in the air (especially how tall he is) but then again he isn't dominated on it. As for his pace, he's not quick but he isn't a slouch.

If you compare him to the defenders in United, City, Spurs, Chelsea and Arsenal you could only really argue Dave (and only as a recovery defender as he's weak in the air), Kompany, Alderweireld, Vertonghen are definitely better than Matip. Everyone else is around his level depending on how they feel on the day.

That's what i mean by standout defender or not. No he isn't a superstar but he's by far a weak link which is your midfield and tactics that expose your defence (not necessarily a bad thing as you get plenty of goals)

As for Lovren, the reason he gets slated is because he has loads of mistakes and will give you a 9/10 game or a 3/10 game and he is super inconsistent (as well as underwhelming you when you boys thought he'd be a superstar). Matip is far more consistent than him

Having upset a lot of fans with a couple of spectacularly bad games, Lovren is now under greater scrutiny than Matip, and all his mistakes are highlighted.
I think Lovren has the potential to be the better player, but his inconsistency - and imo a lack of self-belief - undermine him.
I think we need someone better than either of them.

 

[Klopp's Mannschaft]

Matip has never been great, just better than what we had when he arrived meaning he looked better than he was! He's got decent passing (nothing special, I think it's the elegance with the wavy hand thing which makes his passing flatter to deceive) but he's very weak physically, never seems to win balls in the air in our own box despite his size and often gets bullied. His mistakes tend to be him not being in the right positions rather than missing a tackle or ****ing a back pass up which are more high profile (hi Lovren)

Not saying I'd get rid, but he should definitely be third/fourth choice next season. Lovren has a better balance with VVD for now; he just gets told what to do and he goes and does it, doesn't need to think. We need another CB for next season to start along side Virgil. Gomez isn't the answer yet.

 

[jaffaSlot]

I prefer Matip, but he never uses his height to his advantage. Whereas Lovren will go up for a challenge, he just has the primary school ability to misjudge the flight of the ball.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

tbh i agree with a lot of sentiments in here.

my view of matip is

a) **** header of ball for his height.
b) not aggressive can be pushed around
c) good positionally and knows where to be
d) decent on ball
e) made a shocking error v west brom. utterly shocking. really lowered my view of him


my view of lovren
a) an accident waiting to happen
b) aerially suspect. esp on set pieces.
c) when playing simple hes very effective
d) prone to stupid brainless panic.

overall neither is that bad but they are not top 4 material really. yes we got top 4 with them but... consistently we lose goals and its not all down to lack of a screen.

 

[Zanjinho]

not sure how much you watch of him but i watch him regularly enough.

With respect to mistakes, a high profile mistake is one that means he concedes a goal. He doesn't have many of those (if any). As for positional ones, name me a defender who doesn't make any of those and i'm sure you won't find one.

He's not super dominant in the air (especially how tall he is) but then again he isn't dominated on it. As for his pace, he's not quick but he isn't a slouch.

If you compare him to the defenders in United, City, Spurs, Chelsea and Arsenal you could only really argue Dave (and only as a recovery defender as he's weak in the air), Kompany, Alderweireld, Vertonghen are definitely better than Matip. Everyone else is around his level depending on how they feel on the day.

That's what i mean by standout defender or not. No he isn't a superstar but he's by far a weak link which is your midfield and tactics that expose your defence (not necessarily a bad thing as you get plenty of goals)

As for Lovren, the reason he gets slated is because he has loads of mistakes and will give you a 9/10 game or a 3/10 game and he is super inconsistent (as well as underwhelming you when you boys thought he'd be a superstar). Matip is far more consistent than him

You've just repeated what i said but used quadruple the amount of words ffs

Comparing to PL defenders is like saying Borini was the best player ever because there is no one better than him in the conference

 

[Zanjinho]

Matip is alright in every aspect of CB play but far from superb in area too.

He lacks strength, pace and presence in the air. As a CB, you should be top quality at one of those three things.

His best attribute is his ability on the ball. If he played for Barca he'd be the best thing since sliced bread!!!

 

[Zanjinho]

Matip has never been great, just better than what we had when he arrived meaning he looked better than he was! He's got decent passing (nothing special, I think it's the elegance with the wavy hand thing which makes his passing flatter to deceive) but he's very weak physically, never seems to win balls in the air in our own box despite his size and often gets bullied. His mistakes tend to be him not being in the right positions rather than missing a tackle or ****ing a back pass up which are more high profile (hi Lovren)

Not saying I'd get rid, but he should definitely be third/fourth choice next season. Lovren has a better balance with VVD for now; he just gets told what to do and he goes and does it, doesn't need to think. We need another CB for next season to start along side Virgil. Gomez isn't the answer yet.

No arguments with any of this. I did think Gomez alongside VVD was the way to go but Joe's not ready for CB imo.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

Matip is alright in every aspect of CB play but far from superb in area too.

He lacks strength, pace and presence in the air. As a CB, you should be top quality at one of those three things.

His best attribute is his ability on the ball. If he played for Barca he'd be the best thing since sliced bread!!!

True dat.