'Pre-season' what a pathetic excuse. I didn't see any mention of a pre-season when you won at City and Chelsea like..... You played with no width - the only player who provided any at all was Moreno. It was crying out for a change of personnel and tactics and yet he left it until there was barely 15 minutes left to change it.
Some other **** needs to do the match thread. I've done the last three; 0-0 draw to Sion, 2-2 draw with WBA and a 3-0 loss to Watford. @luvgonzo did the loss to Newcastle.
Wtf was that about with Toure on the bench? The old guy has his problems, but physical battles isn't one of them. Lucas had already been swatted away by Deeney (Ali @ the Spinks fight) in the run-up to the second. It effectively left Sakho as a lone CB yesterday, without the usual outlet of being able to pass to Lucas in DM. It was right to bring on Ibe and Origi, but it was Firmino and Lallana who needed to come off.
Indeed. Of course the manager can't be blamed for the keeper being a tit but he can be blamed for picking him. He can't be blamed for the standard of defenders he's inherited (not one who is top four standard) but he can be blamed for the shambolic set up of them. He can't be blamed for mid-game injuries but he can be blamed for the awful substitutions and formation change. He's had a bad few weeks that's for sure. Of course he isn't to blame for 99.9% of our problems and he certainly can't be expected to solve them overnight (or even in one transfer window). It will take time and with so many average players we will have a lot more performances like yesterday to come. The honeymoon period is over so now we have to see if a) he has identified those who need kicking off the cliff and b) whether or not he can bring in improvements (should be relatively easy ) and gel them with those who are left.
I agree with all of that mate. However, what makes me laugh is that Jimmy would have absolutely torched Rodgers this morning had he produced the same result with the same personnel. Klopp is given a virtual free pass in term of his level of culpability for that shambles, as he didn't sign the players who delivered it, as far as Jimmy is concerned. That's the worst I've seen a Liverpool side play in a long while.
I had a Game of the Day recording of our Stoke end-of-season massacre last May. Made myself watch it. Tbf, as I said further up the thread, had watford taken their chances...
Of course I would have roasted Rodgers - he spent £300m and 3 years assembling that squad!! Why would I have a go at a manager who has only been in the country for a couple of months, dealt with big injuries and had no pre-season to assess the squad? As I said previously, yes he should shoulder some of the blame but he's not the underlying issue.
Fair enough Jimmy, and you're right, to a point. Team selection and substitutions were daft though. Big, physical battle - don't play Lala and Firmino. He should know that by now. Lucas at CB? Against Deeney? I thought he'd use Can and he might struggle, but he may as well as moved Firmino to CB and played Hendo cf for all the sense that formation made yesterday.
He's only "given a free pass" if you only read certain posters posts though You know as well as I do that every new manager makes mistakes (even the very best) so ripping into them after a few matches is pointless and unjustified. Yes he made a couple of whoppers yesterday and yes he shoulders the blame for the sub's etc but most of us were pretty realistic when he joined to be fair (including Jimmy in his overall assessment of the situation). This squad is a UEFA standard squad as opposed to a top four standard one and yet we all know it only takes the addition of one or two excellent players to change that (or even 3 or 4 decent ones). We all knew he'd need a couple of transfer windows to see much change. We all knew there would be rough times before we could assess things in terms of improvement (or not). 3 weeks ago we were happy, now we're as miserable as your lot and the surrey crew. We're now going into a game against Leicester as the underdogs Such is the life of a football fan
Well, after my thoughtful, insightful brilliant analysis of how Watford play, what can I say ? WFC never score from set pieces. Ha! Ighalo never heads the ball. Ha ! Just shows what I know. Interesting though from yet another manager - though not I emphasise from most contributions here - that the result was mostly all down to Liverpool being poor, not to WFC being effective. I am sure the calibre of players at LFC can play much better, but it is surely the manager's job to get the best out of them. The amount of time is irrelevant - WFC's manager only had a pre season to blend in 15 signings and we started at goodison with a really unlucky draw. Have never looked back ! Maybe, a season like this where at least half the 'big' clubs struggle is the best thing for our game. I would say that though !
Was it Skrtel or Lucas' fault that Sakho played like a new-born foal? Or that when he had the ball Moreno wasn't in position to help him out? There was one point when a Watford player was in acres of space down their right, Sakho belatedly ran across (because there was no-one else there) and Moreno jogged back towards the box with all the energy and determination of a half-asleep Glen Johnson. Was it the fault of the usual suspects that Firmino and Lallana were completely anonymous and Coutinho only marginally less so? Can got caught in possession repeatedly and showed no strength or guile to keep the ball when he was. It was a dismal performance all round. They need better organisation- not to mention a rocket up their collective arse, and that is Klopp's responsibility. Saying they're not his players only goes part of the way to explaining it but does nothing to solve it. Those players may not be the best in the world, but we've seen that they're capable of a lot better than the rubbish they served up yesterday, and it's up to the manager to get the best from them. Blaming the same old names is facile and convenient, it allows you to exonerate those you like, but gets nowhere near the deeper issues.
I've no problem with him moving Lucas to CB. Skrtel went off injured and we had to make a forced substitution so Klopp gambled with us already being 2-0 down, we needed to score goals to back in the game afterall. We only conceded one more with Lucas at CB so theoretically he did better than Skrtel in that position. I'd rather gamble a lose three or four nil than not try. Unfortunately, the players didn't seem to see it that way
We may have the players for that standard, but we don't have the team imo. Klopp needs to address the inbalance come January. We severely lack width and a defensive structure. We already know Klopp likes to build from the back so expect the latter first. And yes, three weeks ago we were being praised by all and sundry. We even had crazy title talk for a while
Well I'm veering more to siding with Jimmy in this one. Rodgers tried every formation under the sun with this squad with same results. On the day the players were up for it we look great. On the day where the players forget their anti depressants no formation in the world will make a difference. Smaller players? We started with our first choice back four and it was the defence/keeper that got bullied into 2-0 down. Our starting midfield 3 of Hendo, Lucas and Can all supposedly strong physical players is what many have called for....yet were outbattled to the point of anonimity. Yes, questions can be asked about the selection of the front three but then again with such an ineffectual midfield and based on previous games who really believes Origi, ibe and Benteke would have been any more devasting than in previous games? They weren't when they came on and the nature of our goals conceded I don't think they would have prevented them. The Lucas to CB was strange with Toure on the bench and I think Klopp lost it in exasperation. Maybe thinking we are on the canvas mentally and the only thing to change that is to score a goal..conceding another wasn't going to make the players feel any worse lol... This is why I was cautious about changing managers mid season...there is very little I believe that Klopp can do to keep these set of players consistently confident. Obviously the other arguments of removing BR before he bought more ****e and grabbing Klopp when available win out but it doesn't remove the basic fact that it will take quite a while for him to inject a new (any?) Spine into this squad... Its been made even more difficult because this PL year has traditionally "weaker" teams riding high with confident well organised squads. Something I'm rather enjoying even if it is to our detriment.
You must have missed the posts where I criticised Sakho, Firmino and Coutinho .. Sakho had a miserable second half, I think everyone can see that. I do find it very amusing how everyone is on his case after one poor performance, the first game back from injury, with Lucas next to him, little protection ahead of him and Moreno advancing further and further. He's been our best player this season before his injury. The deeper issue is the fact we have certain players who simply aren't good enough. Whilst focus will be one someone like Firmino - he's new to the league, only 23. Lallana is 27 and 'PL Proven'. Can made mistakes but he's only 21. The man next to him is 25 and is our captain (to be fair, he's coming back from injury himself. Sakho is 25, been our best player this season, first game back and he's next to Skrtel who is 31 and at fault for the goal. Lucas is supposed to be a DM but is easily bullied out of the game. Then dropped into defence and was shocking. A good DM should be able to slot into a back line - Can was able to do a decent enough job at that last season. The point I'm making is that players have bad games - but some players have shown they have quality to justify being at this club and to buy more time for us to judge them. So whilst I agree with that collective needs to improve, and Klopp needs to sort this out, let's not forget that some players are simply not good enough for this club and they drag others down. DK nailed it - the squad is infected with mediocrity. And can someone send Gerrard back to LA !! The guy is cursed!
I can still some improvement in the defending in open play (yesterday would contradict that somewhat)! Cut the stupid individual mistakes out and it's visible how we are not cut open all the time.
Yup..Watford won the game rather than we lost it. You aren't negative, have adopted a style that suits the squad and work very hard to impose it on the opposition. And yesterday wasn't a one off. I'm enjoyinh the "smaller" teams participating in the league rather than just sitting back and clinging on. It's made the title anything but a forgone conclusion and makes it worth paying to watch most matches rather than just a few....
Oh yeah, absolutely. He was terrible. Arguably his worst for Liverpool. His overall defending in the first half was pretty good. Second half - all went to pieces. Stupid mistakes in the first 15 mins ruined the game for us.
