1. Log in now to remove adverts - no adverts at all to registered members!

Victim or sore loser ?

Discussion in 'Horse Racing' started by rainermariarilke, Jun 8, 2014.

  1. rainermariarilke

    rainermariarilke Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2011
    Messages:
    564
    Likes Received:
    545
    (I was going to present this as an anti-American rant, but the anniversary weekend of the Normandy landings probably isn't the time for that, so I'll keep it fairly objective).

    Steve Coburn, the owner of the beaten Belmont favourite California Chrome, didn't exactly take defeat gracefully last night. There's plenty of internet coverage of this, but the article by Zach Woosley on www.sbnation.com sets the scene, and makes the points, as well as anything.

    Briefly, Coburn thinks it's not fair that horses that haven't run in the first two legs of the Triple Crown should be able to run in the Belmont and use their fresh legs to beat the exhausted ones of a horse that's already won the Kentucky Derby and the Preakness. To my surprise, the experienced Woosley pretty much agrees with him and, to my equal surprise, a substantial majority of the readers who left comments seem to agree with him too.

    I'd be interested in views on here. Mine, for what they're worth, are:

    1) the US media have, over about the last fifty years, turned three unrelated events into a "series"
    which they were never meant to be.
    2) these races are for three-year olds. As most of us know, you regularly find 3yos who can't tie their own shoelaces on 1st May and turn into serious racing machines by 1st August: they develop at different speeds, and you can't legislate for that.
    3) I'd say the whole US Triple Crown concept is fairly ridiculous. The UK pattern race system, where a triple-crown candidate is tested at a mile in May, 12f in June and 14f in September at least allows for a decent and realistic progression. The US Triple Crown requres you to run three races at different trips in FIVE WEEKS (with the middle one at a shorter trip than the first one). My guess is that a Cecil. a Gosden or an O'Brien wouldn't even contemplate a programme like that. So, I'd say that the fault isn't in the way the Triple Crown system is regulated, it's in the fact that it exists at all. There are supplementary points worth making here about the importance of breeding economics and the fact that geldings are - quite rightly - held in less contempt in American than they are in Europe, but these waters get quite deep quite quickly.

    And finally, I haven't really much to say about Steve Coburn. You've got to make big allowances for disappointment on the night which was going to be the summit of any owner's life, and maybe there's the germ of an argument for 'fairer' entry conditions. On the other hand, he's probably just another charmless American tit. In a nutshell, isn't the essence of being a champion that you beat all comers ?
     
    #1
  2. stick

    stick Bumper King

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2012
    Messages:
    18,671
    Likes Received:
    10,890
    He is of course a brash yank talking bollocks. The three races come up in a brief space of time and to expect the same horses to be fit and ready to turn up every time is a complete nonsense. Its tantamount to saying that you can only run in the Derby if you have run in the guineas and you can only run in the St Leger if you have run in The Guineas and The Derby.
    As you so eloquently point out Rainer, this is not a series. Its just three races that somehow at some point got linked together to add interest. You can though see now where this is heading!
     
    #2
  3. Ron

    Ron Well-Known Member
    Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2011
    Messages:
    48,321
    Likes Received:
    15,485
    Would there be any point at all if the only horses that could compete in the 3rd "leg" were those that had been beaten in the first 2? As you say Rainer, the timing and the distances make it a rather pointless "triple crown". Maybe it should be re-defined but it's not something I can get too interested in. The Breeders Cup is about the extent of my interest in American racing.

    Matey hasn't done himself much credit making such pathetic claims and if the public etc are in agreement, it says it all really.
     
    #3
  4. Bostonbob

    Bostonbob Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2012
    Messages:
    7,147
    Likes Received:
    1,080
    I'd be firmly in the 'emotional' camp which I suppose adds a new category to the list.
     
    #4
  5. rainermariarilke

    rainermariarilke Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2011
    Messages:
    564
    Likes Received:
    545
    Stick, could you put my mind at rest ? My granddaughter's bestest friend is a WPC in the Surrey Constabulary, and tells me that, every year, late revellers leaving the Derby course stagger up the path to Mikey Attwater's front gate in the unshakable belief that it's a short cut to Tattenham Corner train station.
    Most years they vomit on it as well.

    Tell me it wasn't you.
     
    #5
  6. stick

    stick Bumper King

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2012
    Messages:
    18,671
    Likes Received:
    10,890
    He has invested in a bigger gate these days in order to keep out the riff raff Rainer! Lovely yard with one of the nicest locations you could wish for in that part of the world. It must be a joy to work horses there on lovely mornings.
     
    #6
  7. MickDoonan

    MickDoonan Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2012
    Messages:
    180
    Likes Received:
    2
    If he wasn't a ****e 2yo and didn't have to qualify for ky derby he would have had a chance he was having his 6th run this year so had no chance and had no chance of staying the distance ������������ lay all day
     
    #7
  8. Cyclonic

    Cyclonic Well Hung Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    15,320
    Likes Received:
    3,434
    Am I getting a faint whiff of pretentiousness here? <laugh> America's Triple Crown isn't really a series? I beg to differ gentlemen, it is very much a series. It may not have the illustrious pedigree of the of the august UK Triple Crown, but that should not blind us to what the Kentucky Derby, Preakness Stakes and the Belmont Stakes mean to the USA, and racing in general. It's one hell of an athletic test. It may not be as well planned as the UK product, but it nevertheless holds great sway on the international scene. These races are not new. The youngest of them is the Kentucky Derby, first run in 1875. So this series is not a blow in event with little meaning. The Triple Crown Trophy was only introduced 64 years ago, but the hunt for the illusive Triple Crown had been pursued for a long time before that. It seems it may have been first mentioned as a Triple Crown in the early 1920s. And what does it take to win the Crown? A bloody good horse. Anyone remember the names War Admiral, Secretariat, Seattle Slew and Affirmed? Add to those Whirlaway, Sir Barton and a few others, and you have a rich history to be proud of.

    Was Steve Coburn having a whinge? **** yeah. He needs to pull his head out of his arse and get on with life.
     
    #8
  9. NassauBoard

    NassauBoard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2011
    Messages:
    13,630
    Likes Received:
    4,658
    US triple crown is a good one, it leads to some brilliant racing stories and hyperbole around the Belmont. Something we seldom see with the St Leger...


    but, he was having a right moan, and I thought it was hilarious. It really shows what I didn't like about the Breeders Cup, and US racing in general, its all show and no class.
     
    #9
  10. As We Know

    As We Know 1 of the top judges in Europe

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2012
    Messages:
    39,879
    Likes Received:
    54,485
    I have not seen any of the aftermath, but I didnt like that guy from the minute I heard him after the Derby, he had himself completely convinced his horse would win the triple crown based on some personal stuff and basically fate, so not surprised he has blown up after the horse got beat.

    As I said after the Preakness, Chrome was just a good horse in a bad year, in my opinion he did not deserve to be on the list of Triple Crown winners and he was as close to certain a non stayer you will see, he only had a chance because the crop of 3yos are so bad. Perfect trip in the Derby, perfect trip in the Preakness, not having an overly hard race in either and he still couldnt do it. Was nothing to do with his connections, his trainer seems like a nice guy, I didnt want the horse to win because I didnt think he was good enough to be on that elite list.

    The last good crop of 3yos in America was 2007 with Curlin, Street Sense, Hard Spun, Any Given Saturday and the filly Rags To Riches who beat Curlin in the Belmont. Curlin ran on late in the Derby for 3rd, won the Preakness and got beat a head in the Belmont, he finished the season romping the last good Breeders Cup Classic and is probably the last horse who would have really deserved to become a Triple Crown winner because it was such a strong year and by the end he was much the best, he just wasnt at his top level in time for the Derby. Big Brown was a machine, a miles better horse than Chrome in my opinion, he didnt have much competition but I wouldnt have begrudged him doing it and I still think he was got at.

    The problem in America I think, and the reason why we are unlikely to see a triple crown winner is the breeding, speed, speed, speed, and the drugs. Unsound horses are making it into the breeding lines because drugs allow them overcome their physical problems, and they are worth so much money the owners dont care about polluting the lines. I have not seen a good bunch of 3yos since 2007 and it doesnt look like changing any time soon, the dirt breed is weakening, and the longer it goes the more unlikely it is we will see a triple crown winner. Maybe Curlin can produce a freak, he might be the last chance to produce a triple crown winner.

    And thats the thing with the triple crown, you need to be a freak, thats what makes it such a big deal, 3 races, 5 weeks, speed tested to the limit and stamina tested to the limit. Secretariat set 3 track records and produced arguably the greatest performance of all time in the 3rd leg, running a time that will most likely never be touched. In the process he reduced Sham, a horse they thought was a triple crown winner and might have been any other year, to a shell of a horse in the Belmont. Sham broke the previous Derby record finishing second to Secretariat. Its unfair to judge horses against Secretariat because he was a one off, the American Frankel, wont be seen again, but they just arent producing horses like even Affirmed and Alydar anymore, so im quite happy to accept that it wont be done again, until I see another horse who is worthy of the title.
     
    #10

  11. Ron

    Ron Well-Known Member
    Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2011
    Messages:
    48,321
    Likes Received:
    15,485
    Don't forget Seattle Slew Joe. The only horse to win the triple crown undefeated. He also beat another triple crown winner Affirmed. It was one of those rare occasions when Seatlle Slew was unable to get to the front and couldn't keep up with J O Tobin who won in a time just two-fifths of a second off the World 10f record.

    He was beaten though by one of the most beautiful looking horses I've seen, J O Tobin who I had the pleasure to see (and back) on his début as a 2yo at Newmarket.
     
    #11
  12. As We Know

    As We Know 1 of the top judges in Europe

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2012
    Messages:
    39,879
    Likes Received:
    54,485
    I just watched a Seattle Slew documentary quite recently Ron, had heard about him being one of the greats but didnt really know much about him, apparently was just a big bully, went to front and nothing got near him, and also a cheaply bought horse who didnt have the best breeding, a great story showing that anyone can get lucky buying a horse, think it was 17,000 they got him for.

    Someone posted this on the betfair forum, horses who got beat in the last leg since Affirmed.

    1979 Spectacular Bid (3rd in the Belmont Stakes)
    1981 Pleasant Colony (3rd)
    1987 Alysheba (4th)
    1989 Sunday Silence (2nd)
    1997 Silver Charm (2nd)
    1998 Real Quiet (2nd - beaten a nose)
    1999 Charismatic (3rd)
    2002 War Emblem (8th)
    2003 Funny Cide (3rd)
    2004 Smarty Jones (2nd)
    2008 Big Brown (3/10 Fav - pulled up)
    2012 I'll Have Another (injured and retired)
    2014 California Chrome (4th)

    Spectacular Bid, Alysheba, Sunday Silence, War Emblem, Smarty Jones, I didnt think Chrome was in their league, same with I'll Have Another, just shows how special you need to be to actually do the 3.
     
    #12
  13. Ron

    Ron Well-Known Member
    Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2011
    Messages:
    48,321
    Likes Received:
    15,485
    Just found this video of JO Tobin beating Seattle Slew

    [video=youtube;lFmKe4t-V8s]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFmKe4t-V8s[/video]
     
    #13
  14. Ron

    Ron Well-Known Member
    Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2011
    Messages:
    48,321
    Likes Received:
    15,485
    Seattle Slew has his own web page here

    I also found this video of Seattle Slew beating Affirmed

    [video=youtube;RBHczmcKS5M]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBHczmcKS5M[/video]
     
    #14

Share This Page