Not even young Jack my friend? Actually I need to backtrack. My view of TV as a captain was based on his performance in the previous year which in a way I alluded to in my line stating that I saw him in the capacity of captain months ago. Jack is still young and no one has seen him this season. It would be interesting to see how he makes out when he dons his boots again. There are few captains out there who can really carry through the responsibility. I think were we fortunate to have Patrick Vieira return, perhaps he may have imparted this trait to one or two players or beefed up then chosen ones of our club.
I have recollection of this but it is faint so I can't put all of a finger on it. I don't know how one can put a team out on the pitch without a captain but then I think Arsene expects to lead from the sidelines even if it's showing what to do with plastic containers please log in to view this image Oops, better watch my step. Wouldn't wish two be seen to be disrespectful But you don't think Vieira was perhaps captain material either?
I had an argument on the Sunderland board, sorry, discussion, about this very thing and I'm afraid I'm in the exact opposite camp. Since Bruce left us we have had thread after thread about how he is whoring himself around and telling lies about us. I watched Goals on Sunday with Petit and Bruce, they are ex footballers who are asked on shows, why should they say no. When on the shows they are asked questions about their time with clubs, should they say no comment and both, IMO spoke sense and I enjoyed them, saw no slagging off just honest answers and opinions. I just wish people would read what is said and who said it before judging, just my opinion.
I also think Petit spoke very well . It's something that we've discussed a lot here, and I think as the thread has progressed it's landed on the correct issue - the importance of the captain. Wenger once said this - after he appointed Gallas : I agree with him to an extent, but somewhere along the line, the kind of captaincy exhibited by Tony Adams has been lost, and I think this is one of the reasons players like Petit are so frustrated that we seem to regularly drop into a malaise and need kicking up the 'derriere'.
This is English football, football on the continent is different. Because English football is the beast it is you need leaders, you need strong characters, there is no hiding place, it is fast, it is physical, you need to be up for EVERY game. Capello spoke of his surprise at how much emphasis the English put on the captaincy. Football at every level in England places leaders as captains, there have been times on a pitch where a captain has reminded me of my duty and you do what he tells you to do.
You think it's debatable whether Vieira was proper captain ??? I'd say he was one of our most influential captains over the last two decades.
Yes I think it's debatable - mainly because every year he was captain we had the "is he leaving, is he staying" saga. It was never really certain and that is bound to have had an impact on the team. At one stage Vieira even threw his shirt on the turf, and he often lost his head and ended up banned for a run of important games. Whilst on the pitch, there's no doubt he was a good leader, but I wouldn't even put him close to Tony Adams in terms of captain material.
I'd have to disagree with that in the strongest terms possible. he had disciplinary issues when he first joined us, but he soon ironed them out. The media circus each summer had nothing do to with his abilities as Captain for our team. Vieira was a leader and an immense captain for us.
Vieira is one of my favourite players ever - but as a captain I am not such a fan. The media circus around players leaving can easily be quashed by signing new contracts or stating intent. He never did that. Well actually he did once, saying he couldn't bring himself to leave Arsenal, signed a new contract, and promptly left the next year. The reason I said it was debatable was because of the issues I raised (which were real issues), but I wouldnt say he was a bad captain - just not in Adam's class.
Sorry Jayram, but this one is a no brainer. Vieira was an immense captain for us, there's no debate about it. He led us to the double and is decorated with honours both at club and international level. He was the lynchpin in our team and often dragged us back from losing positions with his never say die attitude. He was tough, tenacious and also scored some really important goals. The media circus had nothing to do with his ability as captain for us, that is a non point really. Also the reason he left was because the board told him that they were 'neutral' on keeping him, that he said, was the reason why he left - had they said they wanted to keep him, he would have stayed. Vieiria - Legend and immense captain
Legend - yes 100% agree. Brilliant player - the best midfielder I have seen in the PL. immense captain - well I am just not so sure. As I said the disciplinary issues and the 'is he staying, or going' circus every year, in my view, would be unsettling to the players. Just to be clear though - I am comparing him to Mr Arsenal - Tony Adams. In that regard, he falls far short.
Like I said, the 'is he staying or going' circus had nothing to do with his abilities as captain, and was created by the media, not Vieira. Vieira was an immense captain. There's no debate really Jayram.
OK, lets end the argument there with our different views. The main question really is why do players like Petit talk about the team needing things to go wrong before they really step up and prove themselves...? It's been discussed a lot on here too, so it's obviously not an isolated set of views among a few fans... whats the problem here? Why does it take crappy newspaper headlines, or the team being booed at half time (which I disagree with but it did seem to make a difference vs. Villa) for the players to start showing some fight? Would a captain like Adams have made a difference in some of the games over the last few years where we've just looked uninterested? Basically, is this a problem that, if corrected, could help us on the road to success? Have we already started to address it? I was very pleased at how we played after the QPR loss. That was a great sign.
He was an incredible player - No doubt. He was a good captain, but not a patch on Tony Adams. I also think he was a better player when he wasn't captain. He was the only choice to suceed Adams, but was not in my opinion and 'immense captain'. I also think Roy Keane for Man U was a better captain that Vieira.
RVB - nah I don't think Wilshere is captain material, I haven't see any real leadership qualities in him .. yet. Good player and has steel but I don't see him driving the team on when they need it. Jayram, can't agree with you bloke, Vieira for me was EXACTLY the right type of player to be Arsenal captain. What he did on the pitch, the way he fired up players, the effort he put in for games, he was a terrific leader, different to Tony Adams but no less a leader. He was a great Arsenal captain.
To add to this Tony Adams was leader of a team and during an era where football was different. You can't say Keane was a better captain than Vieira, what is the criteria for this ? Vieira carried his team forward, same as Keane, both were vital for their teams, both put in total effort and commitment. Would Keane have been better for Arsenal ? I don't see how, Vieira suited our style of play. I dare say the team Adams captained was an easier team to captain because we were not exactly known for our attacking flair until Wenger came along - the latter part of Adam's reign as captain.
of course there is a debate. Just because YOU think there is nothing to discuss others do. I don't wish to try to choose - but it is a matter of opinion - you have to learn to let others have their say. Forum is about views - not yours prevailing at every opportunity.
It's hard to explain why I think this, but in my opinion Adams was a better captain than he was a player. There were a few people around the time, who could defend better, including Steve Bould, but having Adams as captain raised his game and those around him. The team looked much worse, when he was not there as captain. I think the same of Roy Keane. Vieira was a much better player than Keane, but Keane, like Adams ensured that the team were much better as a whole. Vieira was probably the best midfielder in the Premier league when he was at Arsenal and single handedly he controlled most games, hence why Man U used to have to play another 'ball winner' alongside Keane when we played them. Vieira was a better player than captain. I do not think that we missed his captaincy ability when he didn't play in the same way that Adams or Keane for example were missed. Also Adams was still captain from 98 to 2002, the same team that Vieira then captained, so I think it is fair to compare them. I hope that someone out there kind of understands what I'm trying to say...
Well Adams did play under Wenger for many years and was the undoubted leader of the team - he won 4 titles, 2 under Graham, but also 2 under Wenger. Lets not forget that Vieira was only captain for 3 years.
