Value? What value?

[OddDog]

Apologies for simply cutting and pasting the below article from the Racing Post, but surely this kind of thing is going to make people even less likely to go racing. I also find the overround quoted for the Grand National staggering. Thoughts?

"Punters 'short-changed' in Wolves SP shocker

By James Pugh 7:32PM 28NOV 2011 A leading high-street bookmaker on Monday accused on-course layers at Wolverhampton of "short-changing" punters after the 2m handicap returned an extraordinary overround of 156 per cent.

The figure was even bigger than that returned on this year's 40-runner John Smith's Grand National at Aintree, which came in at a whopping 155 per cent.

Seven of the 12 runners were cut in price in the minutes before the race, including winner Wild Desert (16-1 from 22), Sounds Of Thunder (8-1 from 16), Mecox Bay (7-1 from 14) while favourite Priors Gold held firm at 5-4 and none of the otherrunners drifted.

David Stevens of Coral said: "Off-course firms were backing two or three horses in the race as usual, but if on-course bookies are not pushing out others then clearly they are short-changing punters.

"Turnover on this race was nothing out of the ordinary and there was nothing untoward."

The last five 12-runner races at Wolverhampton have returned overround figures of 116, 115, 114, 121 and 118 per cent.

Commenting on the market, Jim Dimmock, the SP returner on duty at Wolverhampton, said: "Ladbrokes backed the favourite [Priors Gold], the Corals chap took a load of small bets for Boa and Mecox Bay and the winner shortened up to 16-1 from 25.

"Jasmeno was 8-1 from 10, Sounds Of Thunder was 8-1 from 14 and Suzi's A Class Act was 4-1 from 6. Everything shortened and all the rest stayed the same."

On-course layers, who were operating indoors, were asked about the market but declined to comment, while Jim Donnelley, spokesman for the SP Regulatory Committee, said the SPRC had requested a report on the market at Wolverhampton.

The unusually high overround prompted punters to react on Twitter.

Among the angry tweets were "Come racing? Last betting market shows why I don't go Wolverhampton, plain awful" and "156% at Wolverhampton #comeracinggetthevalue."

 

[Grizzly]

This will only get worse Oddy.
The ongoing 'pitch battle' where racecourses refused to accept the terms that on course bookmakers operated to has in some cases been resolved - courses were unhappy with the 'five times' rule whereby bookmakers paid the course five times the most expensive entry as fee to operate, bookmakers assistants could gain entry by simply paying standard entrance at the gate.
It's estimated that the previous costs for a bookmaker to stand on any day were in the region of £600 + travel and expenses, under the new scheme that some courses are imposing from 2012 bookmakers must now pay up to 16 times entrance (in the case of Ascot), so costs to operate increase to well over £1000.
This all comes at a time when the estimated figure for turnover on a race on course has dropped by 60-90% with the exchanges now seeing the vast majority of money changing hands, this estimate varies depending on which source you take.
So, a Wolverhampton afternoon polytrack meeting in November that attracts around 400-600 racegoers is never going to provide value for the punters - the corresponding fixture in 2010 attracted 294 racegoers.
Wolverhampton has a total Rails and Tatts bookmaker list of 56 bookies, it's been some time since I went to Wolves but I'm guessing there are less than 15 that bother to show up for such a meeting (10 bookies for 2010 fixture), and this is representative of the income potential.
As I say, racegoers should not expect value from course bookies from next year, it is sadly almost a dying industry...

 

[OddDog]

Is there a solution out there Grizzly? Less racing but higher quality to attract better crowds? It seems to me the market demand for a Monday afternoon Wolverhampton polytrack meeting is pretty bloody low so the question begs itself - why bother? The Irish seem to manage without racing every day, and at this time of year their mid-week meetings are of a generally decent standard.

 

[NassauBoard]

I ask a simple question in regards this, should SP not be taken with a good deal of salt in this day at age. I am guessing the overround on Betfair and best odds from the online bookmakers is much more about the 'real' SP.

I feel for those who bet at the course, I am not one for betting with bookmakers at the course, but I know many go for a days racing to attempt to win the battle with the bookmaker. They are the ones who are getting short changed.


I would love bookmakers oncourse to be banned from seeing other prices (and trading on betfair). Bookmakers are no longer facilitators but are just traders who lay bets and then back at better prices on betfair.

 

[Ardent1965]

I agree Nass. Bookmakers have always been 'traders' though. The emergence of exchanges only now helps their cause. It's non sensical to expect a bookie not to lay as short as possible on course when there are opportunities off course at bigger odds. Unfortunately too many on course punters feed the bookmakers their hard earned cash...its the supply and demand equation.

 

[NassauBoard]

Its very different to the good old days where they were making books and price changes reflected the balance of said book. I find it hard to suggest that oncourse bookmakers are not making a nice percentage of every bet they take. Its one of the reasons why I would ban the exchanges!!

 

[Ron]

The way I see it, whatever goods or services you buy, you can shop around and get wildly differing prices. The only thing that might sway you to buying from anywhere but the cheapest is better service, or better something else. I would regard the on course book makers as just another option to the exchanges or Tote and take the best value. Just limiting your choice to on course book makers alone usually gives you a fairly wide range of prices. Those who don't offer value don't get the sale. Those who can't compete opt out. I don't blame them for trying to lay at short odds and then back on the Exchanges. I would do it myself if I could. After all (reversing roles), if you were on course with your mobile betting app and you saw an on course bookmaker offering 33s for a horse that you could lay on the Exchanges for 25s what would you do?

Punters have never had a wider choice. If someone is offering poor value you just ignore them and they go out of business. I don't see what all the fuss is about to be honest.

 

[Ardent1965]

Even before the exchanges though the big bookies were fixing on course prices to reduce off course liabilities and still do. If certain horses are going to take out a few million off course they can easily half their liability by backing a horse on course with 20 or 30k. It's nothing new to manipulate the markets to your own end. Just for the record I don't agree with the exchanges either, but they are here to stay.

 

[Grizzly]

Oddy

I don't think so - I may be a cynical old git but I think this could be a pre-cursor towards a tote monopoly.

This has only really changed since the inception of exchanges.
Racing is staged midweek for the benefit of numerous people, local trainers, farmers, community and industry, many people have suggested that the likes of Sedgefield, Plumpton, Ludlow etc are closed but you destroy communities with that as many local areas rely on the income racegoers provide.

I was at Plumpton a couple of weeks ago on a Monday and the pub in the village (only one as far as I know) was rammed at 11.30am and again until 9pm, a small village pub on a Monday night cannot expect more than a dozen regulars so to have 40/50 racegoers all spending money has to help them and the local economy.

Also, removing some small tracks will mean that a number of horses cannot be found races of either a suitable standard or within close proximity of connections, the impact of horses being taken out of training is unknown but even if it's just one that is found to be neglected that is one too many.

As for the suggestion that exchanges help on course bookies, I'm afraid Ardent you're incorrect there, log onto any race taking place today and check the turnover on the top right corner, by the time the tapes go up there will have been
£200k or more staked on an average handicap at Lingfield where the course attendance is less than 400 and race turnover (ring) is probably less than £5k - the margins simply aren't there any more.
People see the big festivals and think what a great life it must be to be a bookie - I seriously looked into this and took over a year researching whether it was viable, good job I did because the bookies I spoke to all said the said thing.
I even spent a few days standing at three different tracks, one race in particular the bookie I stood with took £70 on the race - now given the overheads associated with being on course now and the fact the courses want to charge up to £1000 a day for bookmakers to operate from their courses, it's easy to see how the number don't stack up and why (possibly) bookies are trying to get some of the lost margin back through percentages.

There is already an army of professional punters who play bookmaker from their living rooms laying horse after horse on the exchanges, they can do this for the cost of a laptop and internet connection.
The costs of setting up as an on course bookmaker are in the region of £10k plus annual licences, travel, staff, equipment maintenance (a digital board costs around £4k alone), till rolls etc, the list is endless.

I have been punting for over 25 years and never felt any sympathy for bookmakers until recently but it really is difficult to see how the majority of bookies can make a living from 2012 onwards.
The impact of this ?
Presumbaly less bookies, therefore less choice and undoubtedly lower value for punters (racegoers) - the likes of Corals and Laddies will always survive and invest in pitches becasue it means they can determine the SP which affects their shop business.

Apologies for the ramble but it isnt a pretty picture....

 

[Ron]

I may be a cynical old git but I think this could be a pre-cursor towards a tote monopoly.

Nice move then. That will be good for racing if other countries are anything to go by. Every time I look at the future of racing I come to the same conclusion; either centralise betting or get more money from the bookmakers. That is the bottom line.

As regards fewer meetings, I think that is inevitable. Hopefully this will produce more competition and better prize money at the remaining tracks rather than the proliferation of 5 and 6 horse races at umpteen tracks every day of the week.

I fear for horses being withdrawn from racing as a result. To accommodate the less able horses that aren't good enough to keep in training I would love to see what I would call "fun" racing where it is enjoyed as a hobby and is self funding. This would give non professional trainers and riders a chance to get involved in "racing for fun" and give horses a loving home.

 

[NassauBoard]

They will never go for the monopoly

 

[OddDog]

We'll all be walking round with I-pads or Blackberries or smart phones in a few years so maybe online betting will be the only form that survives?

 

[Zenyatta]

We'll all be walking round with I-pads or Blackberries or smart phones in a few years so maybe online betting will be the only form that survives?

I must admit to being guilty of this. Nowadays you can take your position on the grandstand, get your iPhone out, load up Betfair, take the price and job done. Very easy and perhaps that is the future.

 

[OddDog]

Zen I truly believe that's the way it will go if left unchecked - the problem being that Betfair and other exchanges don't put anything back into the sport via the levy. Since the sport as we know it will die without the levy (or some other such financial stimulus) it is crucial that a way forward is found.

 

[Zenyatta]

It seems the obvious route Oddy. Whether it is the right route is a different matter altogether.

What is apparent is that the current situation is not sustainable. A solution needs to be found, and quickly.

 

[redcgull]

Some great points by our forum members and to behonest i cant add to much to what has already been said...

It looks like a problem that is only going to get worse...

 

[Grizzly]

Nice move then. That will be good for racing if other countries are anything to go by. Every time I look at the future of racing I come to the same conclusion; either centralise betting or get more money from the bookmakers. That is the bottom line.

As regards fewer meetings, I think that is inevitable. Hopefully this will produce more competition and better prize money at the remaining tracks rather than the proliferation of 5 and 6 horse races at umpteen tracks every day of the week.

I fear for horses being withdrawn from racing as a result. To accommodate the less able horses that aren't good enough to keep in training I would love to see what I would call "fun" racing where it is enjoyed as a hobby and is self funding. This would give non professional trainers and riders a chance to get involved in "racing for fun" and give horses a loving home.

Ron

I'm not entirely against a Tote system though the logistics are impossible to resolve.
The second point you raise regarding getting more money from bookmakers is one of the bigger issues (it's always existed to be fair) and is where it all breaks down.
High St bookies constantly say that racing turnover is decreasing so why should they pay more, Betfair pump significant sums in via sponsorship and if they're forced to paying a reasonable sum they could pull out of the spornsorship deals and the sport would be financially worse off.
I don't know the answer but I would be devastated if smaller tracks disappeared, the impact would be catastrophic on a number of regions - remember it's not just about bookies and punters, racecourses employ scores of people, Tote staff, caterers, taxi drivers, pubs, restaurants, hotels, there really are a huge number of people who rely on racing, what racing needs to do is encourage more and more people to go to the smaller tracks.
I'd be lying if I said a day at Wincanton is as good as a day at Cheltenham, but I've never had a bad days racing and even if I did, a bad days racing would still be better than a good day at work !