I absolutely accept that Fletcher did his bit to keep us in the league last season. I have said this before and haven't changed my mind. If you are going to kick someone for failure then you must give some praise for success and staying in the league last term was success for us. However, I am not overlooking the fact that we have more points this term than last at this stage. Look at the points we had or would have had in ratio to points per games played under Fletcher last term. Concensus is we would have finished on 55 if he had a whole season and results went as they did. Look at this term. We have 6 points out of 7 games. If that continues we will have around 45 at the end of the season. We would have been relegated with that last term. How on earth can you tell me that is improvement? The crowd took their frustration out on the players because that is the only ones they could give a bit of stick to. It wasn't unfair in the sense that the players were absolutely 100% rhubarb in the first 20 minutes and it started from kick off. Any decent side playing us would have slaughtered us in that period and I really mean slaughtered. We were lucky we played a side as bad as us. Argyle played ok for the second part of the first half. It was only ok and no more. Second half was as pants as the first 20 minutes. The equaliser was a disaster waiting to happen. Another team would have beaten us by a cricket score it was that bad. Sorry Mexijan but I cannot find any redeeming fact from last night. I don't want to be writing this stuff I truely don't. I'm not going to dress it up into some excuse though and you are lucky to be spared having to watch this right now. This is Fletcher's team nobody else's. He has signed a lot of them and you have to include the new contracts for old players. They are an assortment or rubbish almost throughout the squad with only a handful of exceptions. All I can say is the ones who aren't playing at the moment due to injury had better be bloody good because if they aren't then we are in serious trouble. I don't blame Fletcher for finances or injuries either and my comments are solely about team performance for which he is 100% responsible. Telling paying customers that if they don't like it they should sod off is not the answer either. It is not the paying customers who are at fault for anything.
My point is compared to the start we had last season it is an improvement, now last season it was all down to having no funds, young players and new team bedding in. I really don't see any difference in the circumstances this season but it is all down to the sheep worrier???? Should be given until Xmas, if he does go whoever takes over will have a better start than Fletcher inherited. Do you not think the squad is better than start of last season? As for squad I covered that in a long, long post before and contract extensions I believe where given as there was really no options. In all honesty we had to add 9-10 players to the squad with little or no transfer money. The players brought in to improve the squad haven´t played yet as I have stated a few times I really think Griffiths is an excellent signing, Gilmartin and Lowry are promising and PCH from the feedback I have is quick but needs a bit more strength, that will come with time. Cold hard facts is last year too many of the squad where below standard (freebies/cast-offs/pensioners), no big bag of cash, loan players to 4th Division clubs are not of the Sinclair/Connor standard those go to higher divisions. We get very young unproven first year Premier/Championship or Div 1/2 extras. Start of the season I predicted mid-table, still think we will be there 55'ish pts and don´t think we could expect anymore. Establish 7-8 good enough players, bring in 4-5 new faces in closed season plus youth and maybe next year push on. I know it is soul destroying at times, I have watched my fair share or rubbish teams at HP, but crucifying 2 young central midfielders 5 minutes in to the match well.......... Confidence builds confidence. Gat-Po may I suggest you volunteer to help in the warm up I know you have studied these techniques in depth Plym The one thing everyone is missing and IMHO Fletcher has no excuse for is selling Walton. Why did he let our best player go!!!!!!
Good Morning Mexijan I have already offered my services to warm up the players but sadly I have been rejected many times ! Do you think its the drooling that puts them off ????
I can't believe mexijan that you saw Walton as Argyles best player.......he did take a good penalty,but other than that he was No1 griper and it was always someone elses fault when things went wrong.....and that was often, haven't heard how he is doing recently. The start of last season was dire with the dregs available for a team in our position at the time.......Peter Reid had proven the previous season that he wasn't up to lower league management......no big budgets on hand in the lower leagues to work with.......my opinion was that he should have been sacked after relegation from DIV1. I was sitting not to far from him at the 3-0 defeat at Gillingham last season, a total lack of what to do next with the look of a beaten man.......as a person he was a top fellow and that is why he lasted so long. Peter Ridsdale did the right thing in the end by sacking him....someone had to do it. The cheap option then was to promote from inside the squad...and Fletcher drew the short straw.....but the real problem was after Ridsdale had gone the quickness that it took Brent to confirm Fletchers promotion with no evidence that he could do the job. So we had a team in tatters because of administration needing an experienced man to pick it up and dust it down and at least survive in mid-table....what did we get two older pro's with no experience of even running the tea club let alone a professional football club, muddling there way along and surviving because of Purse and Blanchard's abilities at holding together a reasonable defence in the end. This season Fletcher hasn't shown any sign of moving on with the experienced gained...with players of his own choosing he has put together a team that really doesn't seem to have been given any roots to build on....and playing negative football....with one up front whatever the situation....Rovers where there for the taking and at 1-0 it was Argyle's opportunity to push on.....what happened Rovers played two up front and got their equalizer and nearly won the damn match.......Fletcher will look at the DVD and learn from his mistakes......he says that every week and doesn't learn a thing......1yr into the job and he shouldn't be seen as the new boy anymore....but he is.....so has he got it,you should guess by now what I think.
Dear Mr Plymborn This is a perfectly open and honest question without any ulterior motive: How many times did you actually watch Argyle live and in the flesh when Walton was in the team?
I'll answer that one NB and the answer for me is every home match. The description given by plymborn is reasonably accurate. Walton flattered a lot of the time but for me delivered very little. Penalties yes very good. General play no better than ok sometimes. When things went wrong, and by that I mean when he did something wrong, he didn't take responsibility for it just shouted at a younger team mate. He had little in the way of leadership qualities even though he was Captain. Given his supposed quality, I say that because some in the game have obviously seen something, he was poor a lot of the time. Nowhere near our best player. That is my honest appraisal. I think you are being over optimistic with your points Mexijan. If we continue this way we will get nowhere near 55 points. Something has to change and the football is generally that poor. As I said I accept what Fletcher helped to do last term but this is here and now not a year ago. Plym is right in the sense that Fletcher seems to learn nothing. I think he is scared to lose and it may be that his attitude spills over to the players and their confidence suffers as a result. The squad is no better or worse than last season. They were getting more points then than now. Why? As much as I admire Fletcher for past service, I am fast beginning to believe he is not the man to take anything forward and even may be the problem as opposed to solution.
I'm absolutely with Mexijan & GreenArmy on this. The change in fans response to the first half against Port Vale & the second was beyond belief - in the first half, a ridiculous level of praise and in the second virulent abuse. That's not support, talk about fickle. Fletcher makes a very very valid point: "I'm a little bit disappointed with the way the fans got on some of the lads backs straight away," Fletcher told BBC Radio Devon. "They're all young lads and nobody's perfect, it was a case of it's easy to sit there and have a moan at players." The Argyle boss added: "I've got Youngy (Luke Young) and Conor (Hourihane) there, they're 19 and 21 in midfield and Matty's (Lecointe) only 17, they need encouragement not people getting on their backs." We keep deluding ourselves that because there are 500 die-hards who travel to away games, we have great fans. That doesn't follow and it's no surprise to me that we are able to demonstrate no home advantage at all.
The Walton comment was just a tad sarcastic to be honest although in reality did we have anything better? Sensible I am suprised if you don´t think that the squad starting this season is not stronger than that starting last season IMHO Blanchard, Purse, Wotton tmade the difference last year and Lowry, Griffiths, Gilmartin, PCH all have potential to improve team without having had a chance yet. It is a rebuild and personally I think from this time last year it is improved. We beat Pompey because they were a bunch of kids but when we our playing youngsters they get pilloried from the start. My eldest was in the Lyndhurst and he said Young was getting stick after 1 bad tackle and 1 bad pass how that encourages the team to get the ball on the floor and play is beyond me. Gat-po from the sounds of it I think the injury list will be higher if you get your hands on them
The reason Young got stick was that he started the match as he played throughout the previous one Mexijan. Very poorly. I didn't got to the Port Vale game but my son and my friends said he was awful. Most of the reports also confirmed he wasn't good. Blanchard got some stick for a couple of wayward hoofs out of defence so Young wasn't the only one. In fact none of the team started well which led to the general lets say disappointment and comment from the crowd. With all due respect it is ok for yourself and notdistant to criticise the supporters from a distance. No disrespect but neither of you have to sit through the rubbish on offer week in week out. Maybe there is potential in this squad but it isn't on show currently. I don't believe for one minute either of you would accept this sort of quality in a resturant and happily pay the bill or return. Why then should those that fork out not express their disgust at the quality they are getting at Home Park for their £20. How else apart from abandoning the club altogether can people express their displeasure. I don't agree with booing personally but can understand why some have done it. There is no doubt that things have to improve. If this happens when the missing players come back then fine but if they come back and it doesn't then somebody has to go. The only one who can be shown the door realistically is Fletcher and Brent must be prepared to make that decision before it is too late if nothing better happens. Sorry but having watched Fletcher and this side for a while now I cannot come to any other conclusion. The difference in comments notdistant was not fickleness it was the difference in performance being so stark and reverting to type. People comment on what they see and to say they are fickle because the performance went awol was the fans fault is unbelievable. The start and for most of the match against Bristol the performance continued from where they left off. What you are saying is the crowd just changed for no reason. How can you say that when you weren't there to see it. Fletcher is blaming the supporters for the team he picked. He picked nobody else. If they are that fragile then why is he willing to throw them to the lions. Why hasn't he brought in more experience when he had the chance. And don't tell me about budget. He could have created much more slack for new faces and he chose not to. His choice not the supporters. He is paid to take responsibility and should do so rather than try to deflect blame on others. Nobody but nobody gets any respect from me if they do that one.
So our youngest, probably most promising midfielder, has an off day against Port Vale, will be low on confidence and gets torn to pieces 5 minutes into the game.... sorry but you will never convince me that is either right or constructive. I don´t think I have ever critised the supporters persay but the boo boys yes and will always do. They should take a friend to complain to, bite their tongue until the end of the match, wait until they are in the pub to slag them off or even buy a dog to kick but no player improves from being abused especially the kids. The rest I can understand and sympathise with however if you stand over the chef shouting in his ear to get it right then don´t be suprised if the meal is bad. I read critiscm elsewhere of both Blanchard and Purse for whacking it up field well if your young central midfielders are struggling, taking stick and under pressure then that is the right thing to do.
It is just a sign of the frustration the paying public feel mexijan. I've said I don't agree with booing and I don't do it and never will however bad it gets. However if some feel it is their way of making feelings known then you can't really blame them. Each has their own way even if others don't agree. Young had a half decent season last term and he does have potential. He is also very young. In an ideal world he would not be played so often and that shows the lack of cover in that area. You might have seen Fletcher is in for a Watford 21 year old midfielder on loan. Not signed yet but has 80 appearances. He might be the answer to giving Young a bit of respite. Fletcher should have seen the shortage in that area when he let Walton go and done something about it at the time rather than rely on hope and loans. Another down side to his managership unfortunately. The point about the chef is not lost on me either but, people were not standing over the chef at the start of the season and the meal was bad. It hasn't improved for the waiting either and my fear is that these paying customers will stop paying. That is the last thing we need right now. There is only so much pain a floating paying customer will take and the booing has started so the natives clearly are getting restless.
Im on Fletch's side-there is nothing more demotivating than being booed for trying yr best. As for the knuckle draggers who claim its their right to have a go because they have paid their £20, pse give me yr work address and I will gladly stump up 20 quid to watch you at work for 2 hours and tell you how crap you are at your job. ffs try getting behind the team that you apparently support!
Again a totally unfair comment lyndhurst. Why brand them all as knuckle draggers just because they are unhappy with what they see. Are you telling me that you are happy with the play and results currently? 6 points out of 21. Football poor. Tactics poor. I have supported this club for over 50 years now and would still support them if they went into the BSP. You are NOT a better supporter than me just because I criticise what I see. I don't boo as said but if the paying customer sees it that way then who are we to say they should be silent and just put up with it. And please don't tell me I should just be grateful to have a club because that one has worn off now.
As a wiseman once told me don´t start suppporting Argyle unless you have a sense of humour!!! I guess it is wearing thin in some quarters by now and with reason. As for letting Walton go this is what makes me laugh in the criticism of Fletcher and bears out what I was saying.. he gets called out for not having cover and letting Walton go and also gets slammed for giving contracts to below standard players..damned if he does and damned if he doesn´t. Has no plan B-fiddles too much, Is too soft - treated Souka badly, squad too thin - quantity over quality. I still am unconvinced if Fletcher is right for the job but will give him time to at least get his new players on the pitch for a few games. The poor performances have been there for a longtime now under more experienced managers and to thow money away sacking Fletcher and bringing someone else in (managers get payed it is not the DJM) I think would be a mistake. I said Xmas but really mid Nov then if he hasn´t got it on track that will give the new boss time to assess before the transfer window. To turn the rot around we should be looking at David Copperfield as it seems a magican is needed.
I would say Fletcher has lost the plot but I never think he had it too start with ...... DJM managers seem to have a better idea of managing than he does .... think he has shot himself in the foot big time attacking the people who pay his wages and who obviously don't think he is worth the money ...... but hey ho we musn't complain because it upsets the poor little loves on the pitch ........ wouldn't last two minutes in my job if I performed as badly, nor would I be backed by management either .... why should footballers be treated any different ?
Can I just say what a pleasant surprise it has been to read an interesting, well-argued debate - without any of the childish retorts and offensiveness you too often find on sites like PASOTI or ATD. Unfortunately I can't really contribute to the debate simply because I haven't seen enough of Argyle since Fletcher took over - it does sound bad though I must admit. In many ways I'm glad I no longer live in Plymouth, because I was an 'addict' for many years going to all home games and many away, so if I was still there then no doubt I would be one of the 'dwindling' 5,000 massochists who are obviously suffering at the moment. However, no matter how dire the performances have been I could never imagine me booing my own players. That is simply counter-productive. I don't think Fletcher should ever have been appointed in the first place. He was the cheap option, but obviously that's water under the bridge now, and it's what Brent does now that is the important thing. According to the LMA there are more experienced managers out of work than there are currently employed, so replacing Fletcher with someone who would accept the same salary shouldn't be a problem. It has to be done now though - if it's going to be done at all. IMHO persisting with Fletcher will cost Argyle their Football League status. Every Saturday, when I go on to various web-sites/radio stations, and I see Fletcher insisting on playing just one up front AT HOME, then I normally say to myself "here we go again"....and alas I'm normally right. I honestly think that we have just enough talent, in what is a over populated squad, for a decent manager to work with - but I don't think that manager is Fletcher who, from this distance, seems to be tactically inept. However, booing any of the players that Fletcher sends out isn't going to help anyone. I appreciate that people pay their £20 and are entitled to voice their dis-satisfation, but if they encouraged instead of 'slagging-off' a certain player then that just might help with said player's confidence and a better performance will ensue. A bit niave' I know, but there you are. Can't wait for the Gillingham away game, then for the first time this season I can see for myself. Do you think I have to take my wrist-slashing kit with me?
Hi Gary.....being an exile myself,up the road 20 odd miles in Orpington it is good to hear the thoughts of a fan who depends on match reports and websites,like myself, to keep abreast of what Argyle are doing or in this case not doing. Those that live in Plymouth have been subjected for the last 5 years to a downhill process of results and incredible miss management (administration) that has eventually broken the spirit of those who can remember better days. Carl Fletcher seems to think that the fans criticism is unfair and is detrimental to the team being able to perform well. This season can not be compared with what happened last year,my opinion is that it was more down to Purse and Blanchard and the tight defence they helped to achieve than the ability of Fletcher to get us eventually above the relegation line. This season Purse and Blanchard are having a hard time and so the results are showing the lack of goals that was so obviously there last year. This team is now Fletchers team, put together with those choices that he has managed to entice to Home Park. So last years back against the wall approach to survival are no longer required.....or so we thought....but the fare dished up is exactly the same.....but with a wobbly defence. Fans do seem to take Fletchers dug-out body language as completely unacceptable....no passion ,no directions being shouted and worst of all his ability to respond to the away sides changing their approach to the game....in fact some fans wondering if he has even noticed what has happened....6000 fans seem to notice why not Fletcher. OK he has been unlucky with injuries to key players,some not even tested on the pitch as yet.....but is the management dealing with injuries correctly....you wonder when told that some of these injuries are not serious....yet calf pulls seem not to heal weeks later. Gary..... I'm glad you have noticed that the users on this sight (not many of us that's true) are not involved in the wars that happen elsewhere....although some of us do post on them and give our opinions (Some using other names) now and again. This season the Gillingham game comes much later in the season....now would not be a good time to play them as they are truly flying....new manager and some good players brought in have completely rejuvanated them. Last season it was in the first few weeks of the season and it was pitiful to watch, Peter Reid looked lost and had no real options to offer. I sat there watching their goalkeeper at times getting bored with not too much to do and wondered how long Reid would last with no budget to to bolster his squad with. So Fletcher comes in this year with a clean slate and the backing of James Brent that he will stand by him.....but restless fans who have not tasted success for half a decade plus could put pressure on that situation. I feel the squad on paper should hold their own in this basement division.....if they are coached and managed well....is Fletcher able to do that........that is the question that some are asking and their patience is wearing thin.
All of this has to be taken in context. Twelve months ago, PAFC was on the verge of disappearing altogether due to inconceivably bad financial management by people who should have known better - and who I admit fooled me into thinking they must have known better until the full horror of the situation became public. Fans practically begged Brent to get involved and he has indeed saved the club - at least for the time being. However, he's never professed to be a football enthusiast and surely it has been clear to all from Day 1 that his primary interest was unlocking property deals in Plymouth. Those are under way and I have seen no evidence that the relevant ones at that end of Central Park won't be in PAFC's interest, albeit the benefit over & above a new stand for free (which isn't to be sneezed at) won't be huge. It's totally unrealistic to believe that he was ever going to pump large sums of money into the club but so far he's kept his word on what he said he would do. I'll repeat, twelve months ago, only twelve months ago, PAFC was on the verge of disappearing altogether, now it's at least afloat. That's the framework Fletcher's working within. There have been some signs that things are on the up: the performance at Burnley, the win over Northampton, the first half against Port Vale. However, he has had a string of injuries to deal with. I will remind you all that there were those amongst us who criticised Fletcher for rotating players during the pre-season rather than picking a Best 11 on each occasion. Now those same people are criticising Fletcher when the results aren't coming against the background of a long queue for the treatment table. Fletcher has made the point about the inexperience in the key midfield area on Saturday. He might also have mentioned that he also had Berry, only 20, elsewhere in the side and Chenoweth (20), Nelson (19), Lennox (not yet 21) and Gorman (not yet 20) on the bench. Now if people, I won't call them fans, are going to boo their own team from early in the first half under such circumstances, knuckle-draggers is about the right description for me. And you'd have to be of ape like intelligence to have misunderstood what Brent was about and think we were going suddenly to be gifted a promotion side and cruise off into higher leagues. No rescue fund is coming from Brent, so fans need either to get with the programme or they might as well walk away. And Sensible, I've had days of pure joy watching Argyle and I've seen some rubbish, believe me. Overall, as things ebb & flow, the two are probably about equal with a lot of mediocrity stretched out in the middle. I may have walked away silently in inner disgust now and then, but what I've never done, and I'm sure you haven't either is boo my own side.
Fletcher has yet to play ´his' side this season until he does so I will give him the benefit of the doubt. So we have a new lad to come into the centre of midfield, which seems our weakest spot at the moment, hopefully he can bring some control and legs in there. Problem seems we need Wotton for the control/experience but then we lose pace or go with Young/Houri and lose the experience. Fingers crossed Jenkins can bring both and then perhaps we will go 2 upfront when Fletcher has confidence that 2 can control the middle of the Park. PS Hi Gary and welcome to the board.
