Off Topic Ukraine
- Thread starter andytoprankin
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Many countries are now multi ethnic, France and the UK being two of them. By and large they get along reasonably well, although there is always the undercurrent of nationalism. Leave them alone, and apart from nutcases killing MPs, without outside influences the people, if not the leaders, will just get on with living their everyday lives. What we have here is Putin trying to justify his involvement by holding fake elections. Meanwhile the world is wasting vast sums of money that could be used in so many better ways.
Of course - Germany is also multi ethnic Frenchie. But the situation is such in the Ukraine that one third of the country is largely ethnic Russian the rest ethnic Ukrainian (or mostly) and they both have completely different visions as to the future of the country. The problem is that they have tried to rule the whole country in a centralized fashion from Kiev with only a Ukrainian vision. Belgium is also a multi lingual country but they don't try to impose French as the only official language there. Wouldn't it be an idea, instead of making fun of Putin's elections or referendums, if we offered to send representatives from the UN to oversea them and thus really find out what the people in eg. the Dombass want ?
Sending people to oversee elections now is far too late. Wait until you are losing, then call for elections is just looking for a get out. Rather than partition I would suggest integration is a better solution. I guess that many people in Ukraine of Russian origin choose to stay there for many reasons and do not actually wish to live in Russia. Let the government offer them the opportunity to apply for a Ukrainian passport and take dual nationality as has happened in Ireland. Many people have done that over there, and it has brought the two communities closer.
An independent Ukraine, neither beholding to NATO or Russia, whole including Crimea is my preference. I think it would be provocative to see Ukraine in NATO though someone needs to help them stand up for themselves. Ukrainian should be the first language, much as we don't speak Welsh or Gaelic in England. All in all, the whole sorry show is so damned unnecessary.
Whatever putin's rhetoric about ethnic russians in Ukraine, his orders and the way they've been carried out belie the fact that this is not about protecting ethnic russians but something altogether more sinister.
yorkshirehornet
Well-Known Member
Putin would not want that would he??
I dont think any one is making fun of Putin's so called democratic moves...... His whole approach is against the world order... .there is no future in a world where despotism is allowed.......
The question here is what direction the west should be taking in this crisis Yorkie - that is probably where I differ from most on here. I am neither pro Putin or pro Selenskiy and refuse to be dragged into the same rhetoric as Bush came out with ie. ''You are either with us or against us'', I don't see the World in terms of ''goodies'' and ''baddies''. Russia's stated aims ie. the protection and self determination of ethnic Russian areas of the Ukraine, and the long term neutrality of a neighbouring country are legitimate ones - the methods they have chosen are not. But would any other method have worked ? So how should the Western World react- I am in favour of humanitarian help and opening doors to refugees, but don't altogether like the fact that those from Ukraine have become first class refugees whereas those from places like Afghanistan and Syria have gone to the back of the queue. Nore do I like the fact that a certain filtering is going on at the Polish border ie. ethnic ukrainians are being accepted whereas others, such as those of Romani origins are being turned back. I also support some economic sanctions - though when it comes down to a kind of cultural war eg. against Russian artists or singers then this I find pathetic (and racist). And we really have come to the stage where Russian opera singers have no concerts any longer. and where Tchaikovsky is no longer played at many concert halls. There have even been cases where books by writers like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky have been removed from bookshelves ! What I am against is the sending of heavy weapons to the country. Firstly because these weapons cannot be monitored and many end up either in the wrong hands or on the black market (and the US defence ministry have admitted that this is often the case). It also prevents a peacefull solution and prolongs the killing. Essentially it turns up the heat stopping us from looking for diplomatic solutions. You see how Selenskiy's rhetoric has changed as a result - it is now along the lines of ''a lasting peace is only possible when the Russian army is totally destroyed'' - all this does is to turn up the heat even more. I do not like the idea that anyone who doubts the policies of the West is automatically a ''friend of Putin'' or is tuned into Russia today every evening. It is not Putin who is appearing on your TV screens every evening but Selenskiy with his inscenated videos and I am mistrustfull of them. Apparently when the German Bundespresident went to visit Kiev there was an air raid warning at exactly the same time, and he had to go into a shelter (with the people) - they later found out it had all been inscenated. I am also mistrustfull of a leader who apparently earns only 800 Euros per month as leader of his country, yet owns two houses in Kensington !.
yorkshirehornet
Well-Known Member
Most of that i dont really disagree with to a great extent... BUT there is no excuse or justification for Russian aggression.. that has to be stopped... and Nato is doing waht it can without escalating into a more widespread action. Russia/Putin is the aggressor here...... Thousands of people have been killed in the Ukraine........ and is Ukraine targetting Russian civilians? NO.....................................
yorkshirehornet
Well-Known Member
Also having read a 500 page biography of Putin... I have no doubt that he is a crook and a murderer
The problem is that we have only really taken an interest in Ukraine this year Yorkie - this is a culmination of the Dombass War which has been going on from 2014 to 2022 which, very definitely included ethnic Russian civilians being targetted by Ukrainian security forces. Our problem is that we have totally ignored this problem until now and that the government in Kiev has shown no inclination towards granting any form of autonomy towards Russian areas of their country other than by simply increasing the presence of security forces in the region including a prominent role for the infamous Azov regiment. Our problem is that we only got involved at half time.
yorkshirehornet
Well-Known Member
And do you think Russia had no hand in the Dombass ...and what about the civilian passenger plane being shot down... and was it Ok for Russia to annex the Crimea?
Three questions Yorkie, permit me to answer some of them at least - the question of the civilian plane I don't want to address because I don't know enough about it nore can I imagine that anyone had any gain to be made out of it. You could say it was a dumb thing to do to fly a passenger plane over a civil war zone but I can't answer as to the motives or who actually did it, on purpose or by accident.
As regards the Crimea - this is a question of interpretation of international law. The Crimea had a referendum, and also declared themselves as being independent. The question is how valid is a unilateral declaration of independence ? By international law it is not recognized and so when Russia recognized the independence declarations of Luhansk and Donetsk they were breaking international law in doing so - but. from that moment on they did not see any of those areas as actually being a part of the Ukraine. Drawing a parallel to this the unilateral declaration of independence made by Catalonia could not be recognized internationally and the whole thing remained a Spanish internal matter. All clear as far as it goes. But.....if the Russian recognition of those independence declarations was illegal then the EU was also guilty of doing the same thing in the early 90s when they participated in the dismemberment of Yugoslavia by recognizing the unilateral declarations of Slovenia and Croatia. If you have a law then it applies in all cases not just according to whether you like the culprit or not. Just as a reminder Slovenia and Croatia both declared unilateral declarations of independence in 1991 (following referendums which were not recognized in Belgrade) - judging by the Spanish parallel it would have been judged as a purely Yugoslav internal matter. The rest is history - the recognition of these two self declared states helped to add fuel to the fire burning there - particularly the German recognition of Croatia (which had been a Nazi puppet state in World War 2). The end result was the carpet bombing of Belgrade which killed several thousand civilians - I can't say that this was deliberate Nato targetting of civilians but just that it was Nato policy to bomb from a height of over 15,000 feet though which such a result is inevitable. Amazing also how intact the Serbian military infrastructure was afterwards. Incidentally my wifes daughter in law is from Serbia and she lived through the bombing in Belgrade. But the parallel is obvious - Nato and the west participated in the breakup of Yugoslavia because they realized it was a multi ethnic state which could not remain together (although it had been a very successfull one up to the late 80s) so partition was the only solution - but any whispers about partition being the only solution in Ukraine are met with horror. Why is that ?
yorkshirehornet
Well-Known Member
How sure can you be that the refendum in Crimea was fair??? Have you seen the results of elctions in Russia ...and what they do to opposition pliticians and their supporters.
I guess partition based on an aggressor breaking international law and invading a region is surely unacceptable?
have you read about the hundreds of Ukranians torturred ad murdered in Russian occupied Ukraine because they did not support the invaders.... Is that acceptable? The Russians or at least many of them believed they were liberating people who were oppressed and thenn when they found different they then tortured them terribly...... Not the actions of a liberating army IMO
Unacceptable in the modern era
We can discuss the Yugoslav situation but I think it muddies the waters..
I am not sure that any of these referendums have been fair Yorkie - the problem was that people opposed to the idea of separation appear to have boycotted them altogether. Of course I have read about torture and murder but I am far from convinced that it has all been on one side - the fact is that Selenskiy has won the information war and I do not altogether trust the information which is coming out of the country - not when Selenskiy was so eager to blame the Russians for a bomb landing in Poland, because he wants to involve Nato even further in this conflict. That scenario must be prevented at all costs. To make the matter clear I condemn all murder, all war, and also the idea that the end justifies the means. I believe that if your end is good then there must be a good way of achieving it and, if not, you should question your goal. I hope that my last sentence has established for all time that I condemn the invasion and all resulting violence. That isn't the question - the question is how is it to end, and it is only there that we differ. The question to ask is this - your solution (and that of many others) is to drive the Russians out of the country, and then what ? You will leave behind a highly weaponized country with a deep division running through it - can Ukrainians and Russians (and I mean those living within the Ukraine) live together in harmony after this ? If not then partition is the only answer, as happened in Yugoslavia and much earlier between India and Pakistan. It is all very well to say drive the Russians out first and then we can negotiate but that will never happen because under such a scenario we would have no say in the matter - Selenskiy would be holding all the cards. We also have to be able to work with Russia after all this because we do not want a wounded, humiliated animal on our doorstep which still has the largest nuclear arsenal Worldwide. We could also defuse the situation considerably by giving an assurance that the Ukraine will never be in Nato and will not have American missiles on its territory aimed at Moscow which is Russia's biggest dread.
Wasn't there an agreement known as the Budapest Memorandum, where in return for Ukraine becoming a non nuclear state, the US, UK and Russia would guarantee Ukraine's security. I am not sure that the last of these three have respected the agreement it signed.
yorkshirehornet
Well-Known Member
Russia has broken all the international agreements on Ukraine itself.....Putin has laso talke of the whole of Ukraine bein part of Russia etc.... the man is completely untrustworthy nad has no respect for human life... look what happened in Syria when Nato pulled out............basically, regardless of all our noble wishes, the regime in Russia is crooked.
In terms of Ukraine the war needs to stop and a negotiated agreement found.... but currently Russian forces are illegally occupying the territory....... no basis whatsoever for balanced negotiation is there......
The trouble for Putin is he knows if there was any fair open democratic outcome... based on his troops behaviour many many Ukrainians will now never wish to go with Russia... sure some will... but he has in essence killed many ethnic Russians indiscriminately too
I agree completely as to the negotiated agreement Yorkie, but in order for such a thing to be found there has to be ground given on both sides. The problem is that the rulebook has changed as far as Putin is concerned. The decisive moment was the declaration of independence made by Donetsk and Luhansk - from that moment Putin did not consider them as being a part of the Ukraine - the same applies to the Crimea. This was why I brought up the principle of recognizing unilateral declarations in a previous post referring to Slovenia and Croatia. The interpretation of international law is not clear on this. I fully agree on the monstrosities committed by the Russian army - I do not know if they are ordered from above, but suspect that war, once started, has it's own dynamic - no occupying army in history has ever been clear of human rights violations whether American, Russian or whatever. This is partly to do with the dehumanizing element of war itself but also that performance enhancing drugs, or those which suppress all sense of human responsibility are often used in such situations by militaries world wide.
yorkshirehornet
Well-Known Member
Basically the figthing has to stop...and probably an international force needs to come in....
But Ukraine is clealry trying to get back as much of its sovereign territory as it can....
Incidentally we were on a trip through Croatia and Serbia a few years back...and talk about different versions of what went on......
I've asked you for proof on this MANY times. Where's this evidence? You keep on saying it but have never backed it up.
Changing the subject a bit Yorkie - Germany (then West Germany) had a labour agreement with Yugoslavia in 1968 whereby many workers came to Germany. Altogether about 1.5 million came between then and 1990 and they were the hardest working immigrants of all and the easiest to integrate. To cut a long story short I worked with many of them when I first arrived here - then they were still Yugoslavs but within a couple of years they had to become Serbs or Croats (or in some cases from Bosnia Herzegovina) suddenly they had to get other passports and their status changed overnight - none of them understood why they had to suddenly do this and few of them understood why the problem had erupted at all - as far as they were concerned they were still Yugoslav - although many also became German at this time. I have never since then had any indication that the Serbs and Croats here in Germany have a problem with each other. My wifes daughter in law is Serbian (trying to become German) and my neighbours daughter is married to someone from Croatia - I haven't witnessed them throwing things at each other over the hedge yet !